Charging members to walk

[DFarron]

I tend to look at this from management’s perspective.


It’s not that they are punishing walkers.  They are trying to raise revenue.  if you look at it as an issue of what things they charge for in addition to the annual fee, I think it makes more sense.


Exactly!


Most of us are used to an annual fee and then you are charged if you take a riding cart. But there are other business models. There’s a lot of things that clubs COULD charge for, but don’t because they are included.


Example: 2019, the first year Dormie ran Hidden Creek (NJ), they charged a flat $12K annual fee - which included golf carts.  The annual fee in 2018 had been $11K.  So Dormie hit it’s revenue number with a simple, no add-on fee structure. The downside was walkers, like me, effectively paid $1k for a golf cart that I rarely used.






Though I typically didn’t ride, I did appreciate the uncomplicated fee structure.


I think if you look at this from the perspective of how clubs raise revenue, you can come up with lots of things they could actually charge for, but are typically included (trail fees is one such thing). 



to the snarky comment about charging for parking, that’s a potential revenue raiser :-) lol

[Buck Wolter]

Walkers need to make sure they are good citizens. My home club has several places where I can pick up divot mix on the course and I make it a point to do that 2-3 times a round and fill as many divots as I can to make up for the times I don't have mix. Overall I believe there is enough less wear and tear that it's a net benefit to the course to have someone walk at $0 versus the $25 to ride.


I don't believe for me it's about saving money but I guess until it costs the same I'll never know, though it would probably bring down the temperature of my walk versus ride equation.

As a general rule I feel like walkers are "the best citizens", they seem to respect the course and the game more than riders. Not always but frequently walkers are the fastest players, play "ready" golf, have more comradery  and make the game more enjoyable


Not sure why you should have to pay a "trail fee" to walk a course you already paid to join, but I feel like its a little bit like our government. Let's tax you on what you have been taxed on before and then tax you a little bit later. Charge your initiation and dues and then there should be the freedom to play as you wish.

Plus much less likely to have a f'ing speaker that plays so loud I can hear it on the tee when they're on the green or vice versa.

[Matt Schoolfield]

I think there are a lot of thoughtful comments here.

I think I hear a lot of people pointing to the externalities that golf carts create, and that creating disincentives exacerbates the hidden costs associated with carts.

I also understand controversial, but political advantageous nature of 'junk fees' in revenue generation, that is, fees that simply raise bottom line revenues, while leaving the top line prices the same. Here we can see that a 'walking fee' is simply a de facto increase in the daily fee, which equates to a price increase for everyone, but with a reduction in the cart fee in real terms. I can see why this would concerns about the externalities cause by carts, if what we're seeing is really a reduction in the disincentives for cart use.

The result is not exactly a dark pattern, but it's certainly a bit of shenanigans when it comes to open an honest pricing. I don't know much about the ins-and-outs of club politics, but I'd hope that a club I was a member of would (1) take externalities seriously, especially with something as expensive as course maintenance, and (2) would be willing to have open and frank conversations about revenues rather than offloading needed revenue generation onto one subsection of players arbitrarily.

[JohnVDB]

I’ve been a member at a number of clubs with different policies regarding walking and trolleys.


Pumpkin Ridge had free trolleys because they wanted to encourage walking. They also restricted carts to paths which helped encourage walking.


When I moved to New Jersey I had playing privileges at a smaller club.  You could walk and carry but if you wanted to use a trolley you had to use the clubs and pay $15 a round.


My next club in NJ allowed walking but no trolleys. The club was owned by a family and the scion was adamant about no trolleys even though he belonged to a much higher end club that allowed them. When I retired I decided to resign. The Director of Golf tried to get me to stay, but I told him that as I was getting older and the course had some hillier bits I knew I wouldn’t be able to carry for much longer and the prohibition on trolleys was a primary factor in my decision.


Royal Dornoch has free trolleys for members and guests.  When I first started going there regularly in 2012 they charged £2 or £3 for them.  They have rental electric trolleys.  At the end of the season they sell them to members at a great price.  I bought one for £150.


Brora charges £5 for trolley rentals for both members and guests.


Most people I’ve played with here have their own trolleys.

[Ed Brzezowski]

If you are going to charge members to walk should you charge members for the propane when the paddle heaters are fired up?

[SL_Solow]

I am a long time member of a club in the Chicago area where the use of caddies is treasured and the Evans Scholarship is deemed to be an important way for golfers to "pay it forward".  Accordingly, at our club, and most other privates, if caddies are available and you want to walk, you take a caddy.  If no caddies are available, you may carry or use a trolley.  Juniors may always walk and carry.  We have a healthy caddy program and we encourage their use although some members (unfortunately some of them are younger) prefer carfs.

[Mike Worth]

I tend to look at this from management’s perspective.

It’s not that they are punishing walkers.  They are trying to raise revenue.  if you look at it as an issue of what things they charge for in addition to the annual fee, I think it makes more sense.

Most of us are used to an annual fee and then you are charged if you take a riding cart. But there are other business models. There’s a lot of things that clubs COULD charge for, but don’t because they are included.

Example: 2019, the first year Dormie ran Hidden Creek (NJ), they charged a flat $12K annual fee - which included golf carts.  The annual fee in 2018 had been $11K.  So Dormie hit it’s revenue number with a simple, no add-on fee structure. The downside was walkers, like me, effectively paid $1k for a golf cart that I rarely used.

Though I typically didn’t ride, I did appreciate the uncomplicated fee structure.

I think if you look at this from the perspective of how clubs raise revenue, you can come up with lots of things they could actually charge for, but are typically included (trail fees is one such thing). 

to the snarky comment about charging for parking, that’s a potential revenue raiser :-) lol

But carts cost clubs money to operate, I think quite a bit of money. So it makes sense to have an added fee in that case. Walking doesn’t cost the club anything unless you get into scam accountancy of lost revenue.

Ciao

I guess you didn’t read anything I said, or at least understand what I was trying to say


there are different ways of raising revenue. One can do what Dormie did at Hidden Creek and just add $1000 to everyone’s annual dues to cover the cart charge and not charge each member every time they use a cart.


what makes sense to you may not be the way club management wants to go. I guess that’s what I’m saying.

[Mike Worth]

I tend to look at this from management’s perspective.

It’s not that they are punishing walkers.  They are trying to raise revenue.  if you look at it as an issue of what things they charge for in addition to the annual fee, I think it makes more sense.

Most of us are used to an annual fee and then you are charged if you take a riding cart. But there are other business models. There’s a lot of things that clubs COULD charge for, but don’t because they are included.

Example: 2019, the first year Dormie ran Hidden Creek (NJ), they charged a flat $12K annual fee - which included golf carts.  The annual fee in 2018 had been $11K.  So Dormie hit it’s revenue number with a simple, no add-on fee structure. The downside was walkers, like me, effectively paid $1k for a golf cart that I rarely used.

Though I typically didn’t ride, I did appreciate the uncomplicated fee structure.

I think if you look at this from the perspective of how clubs raise revenue, you can come up with lots of things they could actually charge for, but are typically included (trail fees is one such thing). 

to the snarky comment about charging for parking, that’s a potential revenue raiser :-) lol

But carts cost clubs money to operate, I think quite a bit of money. So it makes sense to have an added fee in that case. Walking doesn’t cost the club anything unless you get into scam accountancy of lost revenue.

Ciao

walking doesn’t cost the club anything unless they want to raise money for the privilege of walking the course and then you consider if the club DOESN’T charge for this they have lost revenue.

[Sean_A]

I tend to look at this from management’s perspective.

It’s not that they are punishing walkers.  They are trying to raise revenue.  if you look at it as an issue of what things they charge for in addition to the annual fee, I think it makes more sense.

Most of us are used to an annual fee and then you are charged if you take a riding cart. But there are other business models. There’s a lot of things that clubs COULD charge for, but don’t because they are included.

Example: 2019, the first year Dormie ran Hidden Creek (NJ), they charged a flat $12K annual fee - which included golf carts.  The annual fee in 2018 had been $11K.  So Dormie hit it’s revenue number with a simple, no add-on fee structure. The downside was walkers, like me, effectively paid $1k for a golf cart that I rarely used.

Though I typically didn’t ride, I did appreciate the uncomplicated fee structure.

I think if you look at this from the perspective of how clubs raise revenue, you can come up with lots of things they could actually charge for, but are typically included (trail fees is one such thing). 

to the snarky comment about charging for parking, that’s a potential revenue raiser :-) lol

But carts cost clubs money to operate, I think quite a bit of money. So it makes sense to have an added fee in that case. Walking doesn’t cost the club anything unless you get into scam accountancy of lost revenue.

Ciao

walking doesn’t cost the club anything unless they want to raise money for the privilege of walking the course and then you consider if the club DOESN’T charge for this they have lost revenue.

Walking is a privilege and it requires money?


Ciao

[Mike Worth]

I tend to look at this from management’s perspective.

It’s not that they are punishing walkers.  They are trying to raise revenue.  if you look at it as an issue of what things they charge for in addition to the annual fee, I think it makes more sense.

Most of us are used to an annual fee and then you are charged if you take a riding cart. But there are other business models. There’s a lot of things that clubs COULD charge for, but don’t because they are included.

Example: 2019, the first year Dormie ran Hidden Creek (NJ), they charged a flat $12K annual fee - which included golf carts.  The annual fee in 2018 had been $11K.  So Dormie hit it’s revenue number with a simple, no add-on fee structure. The downside was walkers, like me, effectively paid $1k for a golf cart that I rarely used.

Though I typically didn’t ride, I did appreciate the uncomplicated fee structure.

I think if you look at this from the perspective of how clubs raise revenue, you can come up with lots of things they could actually charge for, but are typically included (trail fees is one such thing). 

to the snarky comment about charging for parking, that’s a potential revenue raiser :-) lol

But carts cost clubs money to operate, I think quite a bit of money. So it makes sense to have an added fee in that case. Walking doesn’t cost the club anything unless you get into scam accountancy of lost revenue.

Ciao

walking doesn’t cost the club anything unless they want to raise money for the privilege of walking the course and then you consider if the club DOESN’T charge for this they have lost revenue.

Walking is a privilege and it requires money?


Ciao

I don’t think it is but some club owners might. That’s what I’m trying to get you to understand to look at it from club management point of view as a potential revenue raiser.


every post I’ve made on this topic. I’ve said this is what a club owner might think

[Jerry Kluger]

My only problem with walkers, of which I am sometimes, is that we have Bermuda fairways so you do not replace divots, instead, you fill them with sand.  The walkers at my club do not carry sand bottles even if they are using trolleys so I make it a point when I am riding to make a conscience effort to fill divots with sand and fill the bottles during the round.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I was a member of a club that tried to institute a walking trail fee. There was such an uproar that it was never instituted. At another club, walking caddies were required on weekend mornings.

[Mike Worth]

My only problem with walkers, of which I am sometimes, is that we have Bermuda fairways so you do not replace divots, instead, you fill them with sand.  The walkers at my club do not carry sand bottles even if they are using trolleys so I make it a point when I am riding to make a conscience effort to fill divots with sand and fill the bottles during the round.

I play North Palm Municipal quite a bit. When I walk the starter issues me a bottle of sand that I’m expected to carry with me the entire round and fill divots.

[SB]

This is not about walkers vs riders and which one is a better member.  That's a silly discussion. 


This is about the infinite numbers of payment plans possible for a private club.  In the NYC area, some clubs subsidize their F&B operation heavily through dues so that the food prices look cheap and events are free.  Going back a few years, one had an all you can eat seafood brunch every Sunday.  It was $14.95 and included crab legs and oysters.  Dues were also over $20,000 a year while all the other clubs in the area were $12,000 a year.  It also ran a deficit and was losing members.


Everyone is just going to argue what is best for them.  If you play a lot, everything should be included.  If you don't, dues should be low and everything is based on utilization.  Walkers will argue that carts cost a lot and they shouldn't have to pay for them.  Cart users will say that carts are a fixed cost and the incremental cost is only for electricity.  Families want memberships to be for everyone, singles think each person should pay.  People under the age of 40 want a discount.  People over 60 want a discount.  People over 65 think it should be free.  Improve course conditions, but don't raise the dues!!! Well, just don't raise the dues on me...

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I don't know that I see a problem here.

If you want to walk and carry, you're free to.
If you want to walk and use a push cart, there's a small fee.
If you want to ride in a cart, there's a larger fee.

This sounds preferable to the many clubs I've seen that do not allow push carts at all. It's either carry your own bag, rent a driving cart, or rent a caddie.

If you don't like it, go elsewhere. But it's not uncommon and, IMO, not even that weird.

[BHoover]

My club here in Maryland instituted an annual trail fee this year of $150 for using your own push cart (or electric trolley). Before that the options were to walk and carry, rent a limited number of club-owned pushcarts for a small fee, or ride and pay the cart fee. Many members went for the trail fee and have pushed since then. I have no problem with it because I much prefer to walk but find it easier to push than to carry my own bag.

[mike_malone]

I believe that people may join or leave a club because of their paying for walking policies. What does that cost?

[Bernie Bell]

I kinda like this as a revenue generation model as long as it doesn’t encourage increased cart use. I’ve always been a fan of private clubs that kept dues lower and charged a green fee to members. The young guys are not subsidizing the old retirees who play every day.

There's certainly an argument to be made that the over 40 crowd are subsidizing the under 40 crowd (especially those on legacy deals) at many US clubs.

How do you figure?  If retirees are playing 200 rounds a year and under 40 guys are playing 30 rounds a year, and both are paying the same price, how are the young guys getting subsidized? 


There was a hugely successful group of private clubs called Canongate in Atlanta that had very low dues, like $120 a month.  On top of that, you paid a small green fee (like $15) and, if you wanted one, a cart fee.  But you could walk at no charge.  The point was that there was a relationship between your use and your cost.  Not 1-1, but if you used it more, you paid more.  It kept the base dues down, and a lot of young families or people who worked 9-5 could join.  I get that heavy users would have to pay more, but I don't understand the anger over what seems like common sense.

You're making assumptions about how frequently people are playing and what they are paying in dues.  You also may not be including initiation fees in your math.  I think it is common for younger folks to pay a fraction, and sometimes a small fraction, of both initiation fees and monthly dues, and I also know that, during Covid anyway, many younger folks were playing just as often as the older.  Not sure how that is shaking out these days, but there are a lot of variables in figuring out who is subsidizing whom at a club .... and all that before you even throw in the grill, the racquets and the pool. 

[Mike Worth]

I believe that people may join or leave a club because of their paying for walking policies. What does that cost?

i’m amazed at how many folks don’t get the main point


It’s not that it doesn’t cost the club anything. It’s a matter of the club wanting to raise revenue from that activity.


I don’t like the idea, but I do recognize that the club made opt to charge for something that common sense would say should be free (or no additional charge or included).


When the proposal was made at Atlantic City CC as part of the club going private in 2022, a lot of people complained and the club modified the policy from every day to weekend only.


I decided not to stay at AC when it went private for family reasons so I don’t know if it was ever implemented.


but it was definitely proposed and vigorously discussed (or complained about lol)


I guess the ultimate answer to why a club would charge for something that doesn’t cost anything, the answer would be because it can

[Sean_A]

I tend to look at this from management’s perspective.

It’s not that they are punishing walkers.  They are trying to raise revenue.  if you look at it as an issue of what things they charge for in addition to the annual fee, I think it makes more sense.

Most of us are used to an annual fee and then you are charged if you take a riding cart. But there are other business models. There’s a lot of things that clubs COULD charge for, but don’t because they are included.

Example: 2019, the first year Dormie ran Hidden Creek (NJ), they charged a flat $12K annual fee - which included golf carts.  The annual fee in 2018 had been $11K.  So Dormie hit it’s revenue number with a simple, no add-on fee structure. The downside was walkers, like me, effectively paid $1k for a golf cart that I rarely used.

Though I typically didn’t ride, I did appreciate the uncomplicated fee structure.

I think if you look at this from the perspective of how clubs raise revenue, you can come up with lots of things they could actually charge for, but are typically included (trail fees is one such thing). 

to the snarky comment about charging for parking, that’s a potential revenue raiser :-) lol

But carts cost clubs money to operate, I think quite a bit of money. So it makes sense to have an added fee in that case. Walking doesn’t cost the club anything unless you get into scam accountancy of lost revenue.

Ciao

walking doesn’t cost the club anything unless they want to raise money for the privilege of walking the course and then you consider if the club DOESN’T charge for this they have lost revenue.

Walking is a privilege and it requires money?


Ciao

I don’t think it is but some club owners might. That’s what I’m trying to get you to understand to look at it from club management point of view as a potential revenue raiser.


every post I’ve made on this topic. I’ve said this is what a club owner might think

I understand the concept of revenue streams 😕.

Ciao

[Matt Schoolfield]

i’m amazed at how many folks don’t get the main point

It’s not that it doesn’t cost the club anything. It’s a matter of the club wanting to raise revenue from that activity.

As I noted above, I think the idea of junk fees is a perfectly defensible model of revenue generation, but it's very clearly presents revenue generation as an antagonistic relationship between the club and the membership.

A healthy relationship between the club and the membership is having open and honest fee system. Rather than having a redundant "walking" fee, the club has the option of raising dues or imposing a flat fee-per-round. The reason why it bothers people is that the effective result of an arbitrary junk fee is an inequitable application of inflation. The push cart and full cart fees (with their externality costs) may stay flat in nominal terms, but they are going down in real terms.

[Wayne_Kozun]

My only problem with walkers, of which I am sometimes, is that we have Bermuda fairways so you do not replace divots, instead, you fill them with sand.  The walkers at my club do not carry sand bottles even if they are using trolleys so I make it a point when I am riding to make a conscience effort to fill divots with sand and fill the bottles during the round.

Why not have divot mix bottles on push carts?  My club in Toronto is bent grass and both electric and push trolleys have pretty much the same divot mix bottles that are on carts.  I carry and take a tube that is filled with divot mix which I usually have to refill once or twice.

[Rob Marshall]

My only problem with walkers, of which I am sometimes, is that we have Bermuda fairways so you do not replace divots, instead, you fill them with sand.  The walkers at my club do not carry sand bottles even if they are using trolleys so I make it a point when I am riding to make a conscience effort to fill divots with sand and fill the bottles during the round.

Why not have divot mix bottles on push carts?  My club in Toronto is bent grass and both electric and push trolleys have pretty much the same divot mix bottles that are on carts.  I carry and take a tube that is filled with divot mix which I usually have to refill once or twice.

My club has bottles for walkers to take on the course. I bought my own and leave it on my cart so I can’t forget to take one.

[Stewart Abramson]

I was a member of a semi private club in Northern New Jersey for several years. Non-members were required to ride with cart fee included in their green fee. Members were permitted to walk. Members did not pay a green fee per se, but were required to pay a $35  cart fee  whether they rode or walked. It discouraged walking and sure felt like a green fee. I loved the course, but hated that policy.

[archie_struthers]

 




Having been involved in ownership at a few clubs I've got a couple hats that I've worn. As an owner at a club where revenue was important and the members didn't have any equity we tended to only allow walking later in the day during the high season . In the off season we didn't mandate the usage and saw this as a reward to loyal members who liked to walk. It also can get pretty cold here so being on a cart might not be the most comfortable way to play.


As a member at a real nice club here at the shore I appreciate that we can walk anytime but some of the guys who do mess up the pace of play. As a person who loves to play fast this can be an issue. Sure some one will tell me that walking doesn't slow anything up but I'm not buying that one, particularly for some of players who are "speed challenged" to begin with.


So , if I'm voting as a member it should be an option that comes with some responsibility to move it out.