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Will Thrasher

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Raynor Map
« on: October 15, 2024, 02:25:57 PM »
If it's of interest, sharing my mapping of Raynor Courses for fellow Google Maps nerds. Feedback welcome for anything I missed.


https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1qck4iEWNhbyqNWkUWu5ptbyvhZ8rjTs&usp=sharing




Also working on a second map of the growing 147 Custodians List
« Last Edit: October 15, 2024, 02:27:30 PM by Will Thrasher »
Twitter: @will_thrasher_

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2024, 02:36:28 PM »
If it's of interest, sharing my mapping of Raynor Courses for fellow Google Maps nerds. Feedback welcome for anything I missed.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1qck4iEWNhbyqNWkUWu5ptbyvhZ8rjTs&usp=sharing

Also working on a second map of the growing 147 Custodians List

I hope I can help you here, as I've already developed software to do this automatically with the wiki. E.g. here is an automatically generated map of Seth Raynor courses: https://golfcourse.wiki/architect/Seth%20Raynor/map. Definitely some issues of not having enough data, but certainly hoping that improves over the years. I may need to add additional other affiliations to a course, like course construction for mid ocean club, but yea, building and improving this sort of thing my hobby project for years.

These maps are accessible through the architects page: https://golfcourse.wiki/architects
---

Edit: if there is anything I can do to make that data more accessible to your needs, definitely let me know.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2024, 02:59:38 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Will Thrasher

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Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2024, 03:40:24 PM »
Matt, this is fantastic. Appreciate it!
Twitter: @will_thrasher_

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2024, 03:55:46 PM »
Matt, this is fantastic. Appreciate it!
Again, if there is any way I can deliver the data to you for some other use (like making your own maps), definitely let me know so I can build an API for that.

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2024, 05:48:45 AM »
Matt and Will--


Wonderful work by both of you.  I sense the complete list can be build by merging both of your efforts, as each of you have a few courses not on the other's list.  I compared your two lists and here are the "mismatches":


On Will's list but not on Matt's:
Mid Ocean-Bermuda
Blind Brook-NY
Elkridge-MD (Will...you list this 2x)
Everglades-FL
Brookville--NY
Wanumetonomy-RI
Knollwood-NY


On Matt's but not on Will's:
Greenbriar-Greenbriar-WV
Monterey Peninsula-Dunes-CA
Sunningdale-NY
Mr Prospect-IL
Sleepy Hollow-Lower-NY
Minn Valley-MN
Lido NY (NLE at this site)
Oakland NY (NLE)


I also have a list (which was missing some of both of yours) but includes the following not on either of your lists:
Deepdale-Original -NY
Exmoor (Front Nine)-IL
Oswentsia-IL
Palm Beach Winter GC (now North Palm Beach CC)-FL
Ocean Links (NLE)-RI
Chicago Golf Club (original...now Downers Grove)-IL
and potentially Cypress Point (Routing)-CA

Me thinks a merger of our three lists would total 55 courses:
Blue Mound-WI
Camargo-OH
Chicago (current)-IL

Chicago Golf Club (original...now Downers Grove)-IL
CC Charleston -SC
CC Fairfield-CT
Dedham--MA
Essex Cty-NJ
Fishers Island-NY
Fox Chapel-PA

Greenbriar-Greenbriar-WV
Greenbriar-Old White-WV
Greenwich-CT
Hotchkiss-CT
Lookout Mtn-GA
Monterey Peninsula-Dunes-CA
Morris Cty-NJ
Mntn Lake-FL
NGLA-NY
North Shore-NY
Piping Rock-NY
Shoreacres-IL
Sleepy-Upper-NY
Sleepy-Lower-NY
Somerset-MN
Southhampton-NY
St Louis CC-MO
Sunningdale-NY
Yale-CT
The Creek-NY
Waialae-HI
Westhampton-NY
Yeamans-SC
Lido-NY (NLE)
Gibson Island-MD
Metarie-LA
Mt Prospect-IL
Oakland-NY (NLE)
Rock Spring-NJ
Midland Hills-MN
Minnesota Valley-MN
Mid Ocean-Bermuda
Blind Brook-NY
Elkridge-MD
Everglades-FL
Brookville-NY
Wanumetonomy-RI
Knollwood-NY
Deepdale (original)-NY
Exmoor (Front Nine)-IL
Oswentsia-IL
Palm Beach Winter GC (now North Palm Beach CC)-FL
Ocean Links (NLE)-RI

and potentially Cypress Point (Routing)-CA
« Last Edit: October 16, 2024, 06:18:43 AM by Paul Rudovsky »

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2024, 03:32:23 PM »
Okay, I have updated what I can, but I have a few questions Paul:

Can anyone give me a citation that puts Seth Raynor at either the Onwentsia Club or Bellmont/Downers Grove? They are both associated with C.B. Macdonald, but I can't find anything that puts Raynor there.

Exmoor appears to be Donald Ross, and I cannot find anything that associates Raynor with the front nine there either.

Special thanks to Peter Flory for this thread that showed me the exact location Ocean Links, and Josh Pettit in this thread for confirming an existing Raynor routing at Cypress Point.

Colin Sheehan

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Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2024, 03:57:18 PM »
There wasn't any Raynor input at any of the pre-NGLA projects. About 1909 was his introduction to golf. The Macdonald projects prior to that:

Camp Douglas (August, 1875)  [I consider it his first layout even if it lasted for a day.]

Farwell Estate "Fairlawn" (Spring 1892)

Chicago Golf, Downer's Grove (July, 1892 and spring 1893)

Chicago Golf, Wheaton (1894).

These were followed by a few of partial or inconclusive input:

Lake Forest Golf Club "McCormick Farm" (1894)

Washington Park Club (1895)

Onwentsia/Henry Ives Cobb Estate (1896)

Exmoor (1896 with edits in 1898).


I don't know if he had any role in the McCormick Farm.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2024, 04:13:15 PM by Colin Sheehan »

Colin Sheehan

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Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2024, 03:59:29 PM »
Matt,


Raynor was credited with nine holes at Mid Pacific on the east coast of Oahu.


Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2024, 09:49:19 PM »
Colin and Matt--


Thanks for input.  It is my sense (I think consistent w what Colin wrote above) that Raynor knew very little if anything about golf before he first met CBM at a lunch after CBM agreed to design NGLA.  But I also believe that Raynor was at minimum the "builder" for all of CBM's projects starting w NGLA until Raynor's untimely passing in 1926.  Therefore, if CBM did any substantive work at Onwentsia, Exmoor, or Downers Grove after 1912 I would be very very surprised if Raynor was NOT involved.  If CBM only was there prior to 1909 for sure Raynor was NOT involved.


Best
Paul

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2024, 08:59:17 AM »
When you merge lists and no one edits the merger, you end up with junk in there that shouldn’t be, like Mt. Prospect in Illinois or the William D. Clark designed Minnesota Valley. No need to reinvent the wheel. There is already a comprehensive list of Seth Raynor courses put together.  See the link below:


http://theaposition.com/anthonypioppi/golf/2492/definitive-list-of-courses-designed-renovated-and-built-by-seth-raynor-and-the-ones-where-he-wasnt-involved


If anyone uses this list in their history books, maps or publications, it’s only common courtesy to credit those who put it together. The same can be said for the Ross List or any other architects list.  If we don’t know where you are getting your information from, it’s hard to justify its validity.  Just my two cents.

Stewart Abramson

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Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2024, 10:39:28 AM »
When you merge lists and no one edits the merger, you end up with junk in there that shouldn’t be, like Mt. Prospect in Illinois or the William D. Clark designed Minnesota Valley. No need to reinvent the wheel. There is already a comprehensive list of Seth Raynor courses put together.  See the link below:


http://theaposition.com/anthonypioppi/golf/2492/definitive-list-of-courses-designed-renovated-and-built-by-seth-raynor-and-the-ones-where-he-wasnt-involved




I'm confused by the portion of your post that says "When you merge lists and no one edits the merger, you end up with junk in there that shouldn’t be, like...William D. Clark designed Minnesota Valley.", but then add  "There is already a comprehensive list of Seth Raynor courses put together.  See the link below"

The "definitive" list at the link to the AP site  says that Minnesota Valley was "Designed by W.C. (Bill) Clark".  Is the Clark attribution "junk" or did he design Minnesota Valley?  The MV website and the members I know attribute the design to Raynor and credit Clark as the construction superintendent. I understand that Clark was credited as having designed a few courses in MN.. Did any of them look  as Raynor influenced as MV? Curious to understand what evidence there is on this one way or the other.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2024, 02:34:09 PM by Stewart Abramson »

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2024, 01:14:10 PM »
When you merge lists and no one edits the merger, you end up with junk in there that shouldn’t be, like Mt. Prospect in Illinois or the William D. Clark designed Minnesota Valley. No need to reinvent the wheel. There is already a comprehensive list of Seth Raynor courses put together.  See the link below:


http://theaposition.com/anthonypioppi/golf/2492/definitive-list-of-courses-designed-renovated-and-built-by-seth-raynor-and-the-ones-where-he-wasnt-involved


If anyone uses this list in their history books, maps or publications, it’s only common courtesy to credit those who put it together. The same can be said for the Ross List or any other architects list.  If we don’t know where you are getting your information from, it’s hard to justify its validity.  Just my two cents.
I appreciate the input. I was verifying the merge, but my list seems to have significant errors which I can easily correct. This is the nature of a wiki. One of the reasons I think a golf course wiki will be helpful, is simple that citations only to those who already know about them. Once the citation system I'm building is functioning, it will be very easy for folks to compare and reference citations. As much as I appreciate the compiled list you've made Nigel and Anthony, and I'm glad it's updated regularly, but there aren't exactly citations there either.

Citations on a definitive list would be very helpful in the face of, say, Minnesota Valley insisting... at some length... that they are a Seth Raynor course. They may be wrong, but again, without a citation, it's difficult for someone who hasn't done the research to just trust a blog post, even if I do have a lot of respect for you and Pioppi.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2024, 01:29:51 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2024, 03:25:30 PM »
Stewart,


I am sorry for the confusion.  I meant to say: I don’t know why you would include a William D. Clark designed golf course in a Map of Seth Raynor courses. 


If Minnesota Valley wants to believe they are a Seth Raynor course that is their right and I have no problem with that, but if you want to make an honest map of Seth Raynor courses, I don’t think you should include it.


If Minnesota Valley is a Seth Raynor course, all the club needs to do is provide one piece of hard evidence that Raynor ever visited the course.  It’s a very simple solution to the most controversial entry on the list.  However, I have yet to see any information suggesting Seth Raynor was there and the 1937 aerial doesn’t exactly scream Seth Raynor design to me.  I can understand peoples apprehension about this information.  If you don’t want to put your faith in us, I  understand, but don’t put your faith in anyone else either. Do the research yourself and see what you find.  We even encourage members to take a trip to their local library and search the information for themselves.


I have no skin in the game.  I am a huge Seth Raynor fan who has been researching his work for several years along with Nigel and Anthony.  Our first priority is the truth.  We want there to be more Seth Raynor courses, but if they aren’t a Raynor design we also feel it’s our obligation to call that out.  Whether that gets received well or not is up to the club.  The bottom line with Minnesota Valley is there are two stories.  I just want readers to be open to that idea so they can make their own informed decisions. 


Matt,


I appreciate all the work you’re doing for your free site, but you’re asking for a lot!  The time that has gone into research to make these lists as complete as possible is absurd.  Much like the Donald Ross list at the Tufts Archives we do not list our sources, because it takes up a lot of space.  Anthony encouraged anyone with questions to contact him by email.  Anyone truly interested in this information has the means to access it.  This list was really directed to Will so he could make an accurate Raynor map on Google Maps which sounds really interesting to me.


Bret

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2024, 04:16:43 PM »
Bret, I obviously don't want this to be taken the wrong way, because I mean this with full respect to any researcher.

I'm a bit perplexed at the "well you can just contact me" that I hear from course historians, why add that friction and just generally publish with "trust me" as the default? I promise you this isn't the first time I've seen that as a response. I do know that I'm asking a lot, but I think it's worth asking when people are making strong claims about Truth with a capital "t".

I understand that research hard work that is too often unappreciated and rarely results in any compensation, but again, I find the whole dynamic is very confusing. Perhaps it's a holdover from a previous era of publication.

At the end of the day, it's just golf, so I'm not really worried about it too much. I just really feel like a fish out of water every since golf history became a more significant part of my life.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2024, 04:30:03 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2024, 06:57:17 PM »
Matt,


  Maybe it’s because the stories for these clubs are complicated and can’t be identified by one particular source?  Courses like Essex County or Knollwood which both had Tillinghast there before Raynor and Banks can’t always be explained with one story. I think we have been fair sharing our information on Seth Raynor (sometimes you just need to know where to look).  Sven Nilsen put together a wonderful thread several years ago that included the sources for so many of these courses (with more  detailed explanations). 


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67551.0.html




  There have been more articles, layouts, pictures, old scorecards and aerials uncovered since this thread, but they don’t always make it to GCA these days, so this thread is likely due for an update, but I think it’s a great starting point for anyone who wants to see contemporaneous evidence showing why these courses are listed as they are. 


Bret
 

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2024, 07:41:33 AM »
As for William D. Clark….if there were a Society of Underappreciated golf architects, he would be at the head of the class.


The Minneapolis Tribune reported on June 13, 1924:


“A report on the progress in construction of the new Bloomington course will be made to members at a dinner at The Automobile Club, Bloomington at 7 p. m. today.
W. D. Clark, who planned the course and is superintending the work will lead an inspection hike over the course preceding the dinner.”


Back in November 21, 1923, The Minneapolis Star reported that: “Bill Clark has retired as Pro at Superior Club. The article states: “Bill Clark has retired from the active teaching of golf and will do nothing but devote his time to architectural work.”


The Minneapolis Tribune on September 27, 1940 reported that Bill Clark is back in Minnesota to look over expanding Oak Ridge to 18 holes.  “It was Clark who laid out the original nine-hole course.  He is rated one of the finest architects in the business, having shown marked ability as designer and builder of the Minneapolis Golf Club, Superior, Oak Ridge and Minnesota Valley, then known as the Automobile club.  He also rearranged the early local public courses  and laid out Armour and Meadowbrook.”




These are the articles I have on Minnesota Valley along with a few more W. D. Clark articles.  His daughter was an exceptional golfer and Clark is a member of the Minnesota Golf Hall of Fame.  William D. Clark also built courses in Florida, which have been mistaken for Ross courses.  Ryan Book wrote a nice article about it a few years back.  Here is a link:


https://bethpageblackmetal.com/2020/02/10/debatably-donald-the-damage-done-w-d-clark-and-the-architects-forgotten-at-faux-ross-courses/

« Last Edit: October 18, 2024, 10:18:49 AM by Bret Lawrence »

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2024, 02:37:16 PM »
Bret, thank you for taking the time to share all this. I very much appreciate it.

I have confirmed the first citation (though I would note the Minnesota Star Tribune cites it as coming from "The Minneapolis Star" Page 16, June 13, 1924) as well as a second related clipping from the same day in the Minnesota Daily Star (thanks to jmlawls7 for clipping effectively every significant golf article so we can view them for free). 



I find your argument here persuasive, especially so in the absence of any parallel documentation supporting Raynor as the architect. It will make for a very interesting addition to the wiki. Again, I hang on to a strong, if only academic, skepticism by default, and am very thankful when someone is willing to educate me, so, again, thanks for taking the time.

---

I would add to anyone reading, that the article shared is certainly worth pursuing:

Debatably Donald & The Damage Done: W.D. Clark and The Architects Forgotten at Faux Ross Courses

I think, and the end of the day, I have a very different view from the Ryan, but he makes a strong argument. I think a discussion of that article as a whole would be a very interesting GCA thread, though I presume it already was one before I was invited to the site.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2024, 02:40:48 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2024, 11:10:08 AM »
Matt,


You’re welcome!  Happy we could help. 


I have no problem with people being skeptical about our work, which is why we ask people for updates, corrections, etc.  However,  I find it very ironic that people don’t take the same approach with the stories they have been holding onto since the 1990’s or early 2000’s.


You have to understand that a lot of history books written prior to 2015 were full of speculation, sprinkled with facts to match that speculation.  Prior to 2000, historians didn’t think this information that is available now would ever become available, so they were very comfortable telling us whatever story they wanted to.  Some historians did better with the facts than others, but the end result was a lot of poorly written histories, full of speculation, which eventually turned into errors once the contemporaneous information became available.  I wish every history book could be written like Chicago Golf Club’s latest work by John Moran and Rand Jerris…and hopefully that is the direction history books start to take.  There is a reason why they never cited their previous history books for information. They started from scratch and the end result is phenomenal!


I became a golf history researcher, because I wasn’t believing the stories I was reading.  I didn’t want to read a made-up story, I wanted to know what really happened.  I personally have no issues with the truth getting in the way of a good story and when I find that information I like to share it with others (who care) so they are aware of it too.  Whether someone wants to believe the old tale or the new information is not up to me, but I feel like as long as I get that information out there, I have done everything I can to satisfy my goals as a researcher.  I don’t consider myself a historian, because I don’t write histories or stories, but I do have opinions based on the information I have read, just like anybody else.


Bret

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2024, 12:36:34 AM »
Okay, I've updated the wiki entry for Minnesota Valley CC. I'll explain what I have done and why, and if anyone has a notable comment, let me know.

First, obviously, I've noted the citations.

Second, while I find it implausible that Raynor was the designer, I do not believe that it can be certainly known right now that he was not (depending on your view of certainty, of course, but I would warn anyone about to throw around some "common knowledge" meanings that I do have a degree in philosophy and I'm ready and willing to use it without prejudice). Thus, what I do have positive knowledge of is that this claim is highly contested. So that is exactly what I've added to the wiki.

Minnesota Valley will continue to show up on the Seth Raynor list of courses, but when it does, it will be noted as contested on those lists and that map.

I hope this is a reasonable position to take given how adamant the club is, while at the same time, how improbable it may seem given multiple citations that suggest the contrary. I'm just trying to do right by the golf community here.

Phil Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2024, 03:49:12 AM »
Hi Matt, not knowing a thing about Minnesota Valley CC and its original course designer or any other part oc its history, why would a club being adamant to a belief be any proof or viewed as such. Let me give you an example.
      About 15 years ago I was contacted by a club that had just undergone a restoration of its Tillinghast course by a "well-respected golf course architect who was a Tillinghast expert." They wanted to have me visit the club, tour the course and do a series of local media interviews for the club touting how great the restoration of this Tillinghast course was.
      I politely turned them down, telling them that I was "the last person they would want to speak on their behalf about their course because "it wasn't designed by Tilly." I explained that "their original golf course was designed by him, but then the club moved to the other side of the city in the early 1930's. Tilly never set foot on their current course that this "Tillinghast exxpert restored."
      I provided them with a number of contemporaneous newspaper articles that told the entire series of events behind the club relocating to the other side of town and selling their original site including their "Tillinghast golf course." To this day they claim that their course was designed by Tilly on their website. They are adamant about it.
      A club being adamant is proof of nothing historically, even when it might actually be correct.




Tim Martin

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Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2024, 06:55:57 AM »

Minnesota Valley will continue to show up on the Seth Raynor list of courses, but when it does, it will be noted as contested on those lists and that map.

I hope this is a reasonable position to take given how adamant the club is, while at the same time, how improbable it may seem given multiple citations that suggest the contrary. I'm just trying to do right by the golf community here.


Matt-It seems anything but reasonable to me. I don’t think you are “trying to do right” by the golf community here by propagating what in my mind is a false narrative.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2024, 07:20:13 AM by Tim Martin »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2024, 11:01:53 AM »
In classic Raynor style, the foundation of our course is a compelling collection of par 3 designs named; Redan, Eden, Biarritz, Short. The revered Raynor routing builds on this foundation with a diversity of iconic Par 4 template holes named; Alps, Narrows, Valley, Knoll, Plateau, Prize Dogleg, Leven, Cape and five Par 5’s including a Long template.

If all these types of holes are at MV, who is responsible? If Clark,  did he come up with all of them himself?


« Last Edit: October 20, 2024, 11:03:27 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2024, 11:27:06 AM »
Part of the reason we don’t like to share our information on GCA these days is because of threads like this.  I have shared with you some of our most valuable information and all anyone wants to talk about is the integrity of the list and Minnesota Valley, which is by far the most controversial entry on the list.  We are 20 replies deep and not one person said:  “Holy Crap Bret!  Seth Raynor was reported at Swope Park in Kansas City before Tillinghast ever worked there?”  I thought that was a pretty interesting addition to the list.  Phil, if you’re reading this, have you ever seen any mention of Raynor at Swope Park prior to Tillinghast?


As for the free wiki, I think that is a great project, but I hate to see every thread about an architect morphed into a discussion about the free wiki.  Someone like me who has done lots of research will not put faith in this list.  To me, it’s just another list that needs editing and I don’t  have the time these days to edit the list for you.  You would need guys like Sven Nilsen, Mike Cirba, Joe Bausch, Phil Young, Jim Kennedy, Anthony Pioppi, Nigel Islam, Brad Klein to comb through this list to make it as accurate as possible, and even then there would be disputes and discrepancies. 


When I said it’s a lot of work, I meant it’s a lot of work on the people you are asking the information from, because you are kind of asking us to do the work for you.  And yes, it’s work we have already done, but it’s not necessarily in the format that you desire.  Some of the names I listed above make a living as historians and I doubt they want to just give away their livelihood to someone who is going to make the final call with their information.  The bottom line is do we really need another list? So much of this information is available on GCA or the internet, it’s already been discussed.  As the builder of this list, I would make it your responsibility to go through all of these old threads on the architects and read before you start typing.  Compare them to the lists you use and then make your list.  I appreciate what you are trying to do, but it’s a monumental task that will require a lot of leg work for you.  I am just asking that you reanalyze your task.  Asking questions is fine, but the approach you take to asking questions can be exhausting on a researcher like me and we have only discussed one course and we are  20 replies in.  There are dozens of  Minnesota Valley’s out there that need a similar discussion. If you are going to put together the kind of list you desire you are really going to have to do the research yourself and considering where you’re starting at, that will be a long road ahead.  I do wish you luck, but please stop bringing up your free wiki in everyone’s threads.  We know where to find that thread if we want to talk free wiki.


Bret

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2024, 11:41:04 AM »
In classic Raynor style, the foundation of our course is a compelling collection of par 3 designs named; Redan, Eden, Biarritz, Short. The revered Raynor routing builds on this foundation with a diversity of iconic Par 4 template holes named; Alps, Narrows, Valley, Knoll, Plateau, Prize Dogleg, Leven, Cape and five Par 5’s including a Long template.

If all these types of holes are at MV, who is responsible? If Clark,  did he come up with all of them himself?



Jim,


Have you ever looked at the 1937 aerial photograph of Minnesota Valley and compared it to the 1937 aerial photo of Somerset Country Club and Midland Hills?  If you could point out the ideal holes on the 1937 aerial I would love to see what holes you are referencing.  The reason Minnesota Valley looks more like a Raynor today is because of the work done by Bill Bergin.  You have to understand the original tale with Minnesota Valley was that Seth Raynor designed it and Ralph Barton likely built it, because we didn’t have any information on the course or Barton, so that was the original assumption.  Once it was discovered that Barton left Minnesota after Midland Hills to work for Raynor in Bermuda and Yale, it became apparent that Barton did not do the work at Minnesota Valley.  Once the William D. Clark information was uncovered, the story changed to a Raynor design with Clark as the superintendent.  So, that is the history of Minnesota Valley in a nutshell.  The story has changed from the original, yet Seth Raynor is still attached to the club with out one iota of information that says he was ever there.  For someone like me who remembers the original story, it’s sounds like b.s. to me, and I happily call that out when I see it.  Again, simple solution to this problem everyone seems to be having:  Show me proof Seth Raynor was at Minnesota Valley and we will change the entry on the list. 


I gotta get up to Hotchkiss, how is the course this year?


Bret

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2024, 11:52:36 AM »
Those words were not mine, they came right from the MV website.


We’re in fine shape this season, the course is playing firm everywhere and the greens are very smooth and quick. ‘Indian Summer’ is here for the next week or so, try and make it up. Andy Fenn, our superintendent, will be deep timing in early November.



"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon