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Peter Sayegh

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Re: Article From Sports Illustrated Golf Regarding Kids Using Aimpoint
« Reply #125 on: October 15, 2024, 12:04:35 PM »
Most people that use analytics are obnoxious asses.  They have ruined sports. They have taken all the magic and the soul out of every sport they have touched.

God bless you Craig.

See ball, hit/catch/kick/throw/advance/take/score ball.
If you screw up the above, figure it out and try again.

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Article From Sports Illustrated Golf Regarding Kids Using Aimpoint
« Reply #126 on: October 15, 2024, 12:34:52 PM »
Knowing full well that I'll regret wading into this far off-topic thread again. I want to defend Erik here, even if we don't always see eye to eye.

Firstly, and importantly: analytics are good. Analytics are good, because knowledge is good. I'm honestly kind of shocked to see a bit of luditeism in here, but there it is. Analytics can "break" some parts of the game, but they also show us where folks in the industry can actually fix those broken bits, and improve courses. I'm part of team-rollback because of analytics, not in spite of them.

Also, yes, eight year olds can be exasperating, but they can also be sharp as a tack. I see absolutely zero reason why an eight year old can't learn and use aimpoint effectively. In fact, precocious youngsters are often just as smart as their adult counterparts, they just don't have the knowledge or the experience to use their analytical minds effectively, e.g. they can't read a putt particularly well, because they haven't see the way 10,000 similar putts have rolled. Aimpoint is a very useful strategy for exactly this type of driven youth, exactly because it is a fairly simple algorithm.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Article From Sports Illustrated Golf Regarding Kids Using Aimpoint
« Reply #127 on: October 15, 2024, 12:47:02 PM »
So Matt, the topic really is analytics and NOT Aimpoint. 

[size=78%]As a fan, how has analytics made baseball more enjoyable to watch? [/size]

[size=78%]As a player and a fan, how has analytics made golf more enjoyable?  No more risk taking because the data says don't do it?  Play it safe and hit it here rather than risk a better angle?[/size]

[size=78%]Is the NFL anymore exciting because the first ten plays are drawn up pre-game based on analytics and thus set in stone? Is it more entertaining because no team fakes a punt anymore?[/size]

[size=78%]Analytics are good because knowledge is good?  Nope. They are boring because they suck the life out of all they inform.[/size]
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Article From Sports Illustrated Golf Regarding Kids Using Aimpoint
« Reply #128 on: October 15, 2024, 12:59:24 PM »
Firstly, and importantly: analytics are good. Analytics are good, because knowledge is good. I'm honestly kind of shocked to see a bit of luditeism in here, but there it is. Analytics can "break" some parts of the game, but they also show us where folks in the industry can actually fix those broken bits, and improve courses. I'm part of team-rollback because of analytics, not in spite of them.


Indeed. Not to mention that some form of analytics is and has been in use for GCA for hundreds of years. There is a reason that most courses have similar width playing corridors (not fairways - from hazard to hazard/OB etc.). That's because most people hit their tee shots into broadly similar width spaces. If you played a course where the playing corridors were 30-40 yards wide you'd get pretty fed up with reloading all the time. It also informs things like hole lengths, carry distances, green sizes etc. Sure there's some variance in there from course to course and hole to hole, but almost all of them fall within a certain set of parameters. Presumably most of those were found by trial and error at least to begin with, but that is analytics.


I use the analytics pretty much every time I play. I have not found it to be any less interesting as a result. My scores are better and that's more enjoyable, not less. And I'm human, so occasionally I play the slightly less than optimal choice if I think there's a good reason.

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Article From Sports Illustrated Golf Regarding Kids Using Aimpoint
« Reply #129 on: October 15, 2024, 01:18:10 PM »
Can't believe I'm going to wade into this...

So Matt, the topic really is analytics and NOT Aimpoint. 

As a fan, how has analytics made baseball more enjoyable to watch?

It hasn't. The issue is that analytics has revealed that the more exciting/enjoyable plays are not productive. Sacrifices, hit and runs, moving the runners over, etc. do not contribute to run production. A base for an out is not a good deal. The risk associated with stealing a base is not usually worth it. A strikeout is not much worse than any other type of out. A walk is not much worse than a single. This all contributes to making a boring game even more boring. But we need to note that baseball has always used 'analytics' - batting average and RBIs have been around forever, for example. It's just that we have better metrics today.

I'd also note that analytics have not made basketball more entertaining either. Much like baseball has become a game of home runs, walks, and strikeouts, basketball has become a game of 3-pointers, layups/dunks, and free throws. It's not nearly as much fun to watch anymore. But that's hardly the fault of "analytics". Analytics merely provides data. Coaches and players are free to engage in styles of play that are less productive but more fun.


Is the NFL anymore exciting because the first ten plays are drawn up pre-game based on analytics and thus set in stone? Is it more entertaining because no team fakes a punt anymore?

The NFL is DEFINITELY more exciting because of analytics. Teams don't often fake punts anymore because they're going for it on fourth down instead of punting, especially around midfield. Teams are going for two points instead of extra points at a much higher rate. This is because analysis showed that coaches were being far too conservative in their decision-making.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2024, 01:19:49 PM by JLahrman »

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Article From Sports Illustrated Golf Regarding Kids Using Aimpoint
« Reply #130 on: October 15, 2024, 01:31:04 PM »
So Matt, the topic really is analytics and NOT Aimpoint. 

As a fan, how has analytics made baseball more enjoyable to watch?

As a player and a fan, how has analytics made golf more enjoyable?  No more risk taking because the data says don't do it?  Play it safe and hit it here rather than risk a better angle?

Is the NFL anymore exciting because the first ten plays are drawn up pre-game based on analytics and thus set in stone? Is it more entertaining because no team fakes a punt anymore?

Analytics are good because knowledge is good?  Nope. They are boring because they suck the life out of all they inform.
You keep talking about sports as if they are limited by analytics. Analytics tell us as much about when faking a punt is a good strategy as about when it's not. Analytics tell us as much about when stealing a base is worthwhile as much as it tells us when it's not.

In fact, many of the boring bits are not because the analytics suggest they should be that way, but in spite of them. There is a lot of research into why coaches and players regularly use strategies that are suboptimal. Here's an article on why the data suggest there should be more trick plays, not less. Here's one on why penalty kicks should be taken low and straight, while most pros aim for a corner.

The reason why most coaches and players often choose these suboptimal strategies is simply that the punishment for failure is asymmetric to the benefits of success. That is, the fan outrage at losing a playoff game due to a fake punt will likely end a coaching career, when just always playing it safe is entirely defensible.

Nate Sliver goes into the concept of game theory-optimal strategies in his most recent book, and that concept -- one of quasi-randomly choosing different strategy a certain percentage of the time -- is what most people miss about how analytics should work. A good explanation of this is the classic "battle of the sexes" game, which demonstrates the optimal utility is to choose one strategy 2/3's of the time, and the other 1/3 of the time.
 
Beyond this, yes, sometimes analytics show weaknesses in games by demonstrating dominant strategies that make the game less fun. The fact remains, that the way to fix these problems is to change the games. I don't lament the bomb and gouge problem golf has because Mark Broadie did a bunch of statistical research, I lament it because the USGA allowed driver heads to become so forgiving and optimized that it genuinely didn't matter where you hit the ball... which is actually what lead to bomb and gouge.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2024, 01:34:01 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Article From Sports Illustrated Golf Regarding Kids Using Aimpoint
« Reply #131 on: October 15, 2024, 01:45:18 PM »
Is the NFL anymore exciting because the first ten plays are drawn up pre-game 


Bill Walsh started this back in the 1980s.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Article From Sports Illustrated Golf Regarding Kids Using Aimpoint
« Reply #132 on: October 15, 2024, 01:47:48 PM »
My eight-year old is serious about playing golf. He loves to practice, is eager to learn, wants to take lessons, and is ultra competitive. There is no chance I would ever let him take lessons from someone like Erik. I would prefer he quit the game.
This is on topic how? You've not met me and don't know me. I guess it's "I'm ignorant but gonna talk about it anyway" night.

If your kid is serious about golf, he's likely quite capable of paying attention long enough to learn AimPoint Express.

You’ve been an obnoxious ass on this forum, NLU, and probably even your own site (which, thankfully, I’ve not visited recently) for years. I respectfully suggest the common denominator may be you.


I have not asked my son about using AimPoint. Maybe I will, maybe I won’t. However, I have taught him to yell “fore” when he hits a wayward shot. Do you teach your students that?


Brian, if you make it to the ignore list we will have to check and see if the shop will allow us to play in a five some.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Article From Sports Illustrated Golf Regarding Kids Using Aimpoint
« Reply #133 on: October 15, 2024, 03:41:56 PM »
Most people that use analytics are obnoxious asses.  They have ruined sports. They have taken all the magic and the soul out of every sport they have touched.


GIR is analytics.  Batting average is analytics. Yards per carry is analytics.  Shooting percentage is analytics. 


Computers have provided tools for other analytics, and any coach or GM that doesn’t use them needs to look for another profession; they will lose, be fired, and be unhireable.


Strokes Gained is a really valuable tool to better understand what’s happening on a golf course, and it was born largely out of Mark Broadie’s understanding that just counting up putts, or even putts per GIR, revealed very little about how good a putter someone was.


If all of that takes “the magic and the soul” out of a sport, then you have a problem; you have no teams to root for, and you’re doomed to hate sports.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Article From Sports Illustrated Golf Regarding Kids Using Aimpoint
« Reply #134 on: October 16, 2024, 07:08:42 PM »
A.G.  Hate sports? I am getting there! NFL is unbearable for me to watch, as is the NBA.  And I will gladly take the magic of seeing a putt with a lot of break, that I read with my eyes and not my feet, drop in the hole...


Analyzing EVERYTHING to the nth degree is lacking in soul, and a killer of magic moments...and I believe MOST people that love sports hate what analytics has done to their favorite sports.  The evolution of analytics from BA..HR...RBI to barrel rate, OPC, WAR ETC. is something nobody needed. Those that live in that profession spend a lot of time and effort convincing people it's important when the single biggest indicator of team sport success is money spent by the franchise...Always has been and always will be.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Article From Sports Illustrated Golf Regarding Kids Using Aimpoint
« Reply #135 on: October 16, 2024, 08:16:32 PM »
A.G.  Hate sports? I am getting there! NFL is unbearable for me to watch, as is the NBA.  And I will gladly take the magic of seeing a putt with a lot of break, that I read with my eyes and not my feet, drop in the hole...


Analyzing EVERYTHING to the nth degree is lacking in soul, and a killer of magic moments...and I believe MOST people that love sports hate what analytics has done to their favorite sports.  The evolution of analytics from BA..HR...RBI to barrel rate, OPC, WAR ETC. is something nobody needed. Those that live in that profession spend a lot of time and effort convincing people it's important when the single biggest indicator of team sport success is money spent by the franchise...Always has been and always will be.


I don't 100% know this to be true, but I believe that Tiger was very good at figuring out the "correct" target for just about any shot he hit. It was one of the reasons he was so good. Pretty much never got caught going at a flag he shouldn't have. He was ahead of the curve (at least as far as the mainstream was concerned) in that regard and I would say was also probably the most exciting figure in the game for the past 30 years. Certainly purses seem to suggest as much. So I'm not sure it's fair to say that golf is suffering due to analytics.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Article From Sports Illustrated Golf Regarding Kids Using Aimpoint
« Reply #136 on: October 17, 2024, 03:25:37 PM »
Firstly, and importantly: analytics are good. Analytics are good, because knowledge is good. I'm honestly kind of shocked to see a bit of luditeism in here, but there it is. Analytics can "break" some parts of the game, but they also show us where folks in the industry can actually fix those broken bits, and improve courses. I'm part of team-rollback because of analytics, not in spite of them.

Also, yes, eight year olds can be exasperating, but they can also be sharp as a tack. I see absolutely zero reason why an eight year old can't learn and use aimpoint effectively. In fact, precocious youngsters are often just as smart as their adult counterparts, they just don't have the knowledge or the experience to use their analytical minds effectively, e.g. they can't read a putt particularly well, because they haven't see the way 10,000 similar putts have rolled. Aimpoint is a very useful strategy for exactly this type of driven youth, exactly because it is a fairly simple algorithm.
Indeed.

As a fan, how has analytics made baseball more enjoyable to watch?
That's not what you said.

In fact, many of the boring bits are not because the analytics suggest they should be that way, but in spite of them. There is a lot of research into why coaches and players regularly use strategies that are suboptimal. Here's an article on why the data suggest there should be more trick plays, not less. Here's one on why penalty kicks should be taken low and straight, while most pros aim for a corner. The reason why most coaches and players often choose these suboptimal strategies is simply that the punishment for failure is asymmetric to the benefits of success. That is, the fan outrage at losing a playoff game due to a fake punt will likely end a coaching career, when just always playing it safe is entirely defensible.
NFL coaches should rarely punt, but they still do it all the time, even when it's sub-optimal. Because that's what they've always done, and people are slow to react. Do what's traditionally done, and your job is safer than trying to do 100% or even 80% analytical things…

I don't 100% know this to be true, but I believe that Tiger was very good at figuring out the "correct" target for just about any shot he hit. It was one of the reasons he was so good. Pretty much never got caught going at a flag he shouldn't have. He was ahead of the curve (at least as far as the mainstream was concerned) in that regard and I would say was also probably the most exciting figure in the game for the past 30 years. Certainly purses seem to suggest as much. So I'm not sure it's fair to say that golf is suffering due to analytics.
Bingo.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.