A Club is more than just a course.

[Tony_Muldoon]

In its own way this site is a testament to the changes of the past 25 years.
Back when Ran was reading The World Atlas of Golf in his diapers, the vast majority of great courses were private members clubs.


Since then the trend for fully accessible great, as in "ranked", new courses has been skewed towards the green fee model.


The discussion here has always centered on Golf Course Architecture and if the site is ever updated and hence revitalized, a change of name is also overdue.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

because of a missing chromosome

Pedantry alert… it's not missing, just different.    X vs. Y.

[Peter Sayegh]

because of a missing chromosome

Pedantry alert… it's not missing, just different.    X vs. Y.

Beautiful.

Well put(ted).

[Chris Hughes]

I think there is an uncomfortable elephant in the room though. If we started rating clubs, we'd probably have to come to terms with a lot of the less sympathetic parts of our culture that we ignore or even pretend don't exist: the decadence, the discrimination and exclusion... all that becomes relevant.

How so?

I mean, Chris, please. You have brazenly suggested Garden City Golf Club. We both know exactly what your doing. Your top club has wildly discriminatory policies as to who they allow membership and play. Some might even call it open sexism, but what do I know, I can't say I've been there.

Brazenly?!? That's funny...    If you've never been there how do you what the policies are and who is "allowed (to) play"?  How about you fill us in on exactly who is "allowed (to) play"? 

I know it's not just me. There are a lot of folks exhausted with the fact that many bad actors get a pass because nobody is willing to say anything, and there is nothing really to do. If, however, people were suddenly tasked with rating these clubs instead of just their courses, I suspect we would find some noticeable exclusions.

It's just a passing discussion about "clubs", nothing more, lighten up Francis!

It's a shame curling or handball or tennis didn't catch your eye early on, with all the "bad actors" (as defined by you) in golf you're in for a lifetime of frustration.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Brazenly?!? That's funny...    If you've never been there how do you what the policies are and who is "allowed (to) play"?  How about you fill us in on exactly who is "allowed (to) play"? 

It's just a passing discussion about "clubs", nothing more, lighten up Francis!
It's a shame curling or handball or tennis didn't catch your eye early on, with all the "bad actors" (as defined by you) in golf you're in for a lifetime of frustration.

Chris, this type of trolling is unhelpful. I'm trying to have a real discussion, and the flippant sniping makes that difficult. How might one know about Garden City's policies? Here are a few sources:

https://www.newsday.com/sports/golf/male-only-garden-city-golf-club-stands-by-tradition-a95095

https://longisland.news12.com/garden-citys-male-only-golf-club-has-no-plan-to-admit-women-yet-38435467

https://nypost.com/article/inside-americas-men-only-golf-clubs/

[Mark_Fine]

Michael,
No question a club is more than just the golf course.  Is anyone or any ranking saying otherwise?  We can and do rank almost everything on this site even though it is supposed to be a "golf architecture" discussion group.  I just played The Lake Course at The Olympic Club and had one of their famous burger dogs at their half-way house.  It is fantastic!  Should I up the rating of the golf course because of it?  Same goes for the showers at Merion, the clubhouse at Shinnecock Hills, the locker room at Seminole, Ben's Porch at Sand Hills,...We can rank and rate whatever we want, but the golf course is the golf course and best I can tell, if we are rating or ranking golf architecture, these other aspects of "the club" don't come into play.  That said, there are "best club" rankings out there where all these other factors come in to play. 

[Tim_Weiman]

Mark,


Those burger dogs at the Olympic Club are awesome!


Tim

[cary lichtenstein]

The best course if you live in a gated community, is the one with the friendliest residents and amenities, but not necessarily a top ranked golf course

[Chris Hughes]

Brazenly?!? That's funny...    If you've never been there how do you what the policies are and who is "allowed (to) play"?  How about you fill us in on exactly who is "allowed (to) play"? 

It's just a passing discussion about "clubs", nothing more, lighten up Francis!
It's a shame curling or handball or tennis didn't catch your eye early on, with all the "bad actors" (as defined by you) in golf you're in for a lifetime of frustration.

Chris, this type of trolling is unhelpful. I'm trying to have a real discussion, and the flippant sniping makes that difficult. How might one know about Garden City's policies? Here are a few sources:

https://www.newsday.com/sports/golf/male-only-garden-city-golf-club-stands-by-tradition-a95095

https://longisland.news12.com/garden-citys-male-only-golf-club-has-no-plan-to-admit-women-yet-38435467

https://nypost.com/article/inside-americas-men-only-golf-clubs/

Trust me, don't believe everything you read...especially when it comes to the woke Long Island based news outlets.


The bottom line is I don't believe a "real discussion" is needed, in any way. 


You can whinge & moan all you like and it's not going to change anything, at all, about the small handful of men-only golf clubs in the soon-to-be-great-again United States of America. 


To a club they keep to themselves, are entirely private, and how they conduct their operations just isn't any of your business. 

[Matt Schoolfield]

Trust me, don't believe everything you read...

There is a bit more description here:

https://top100golf.blogspot.com/2006/01/garden-city-golf-club.html

After posting on Garden City I have received a number of emails regarding Garden City's policy of women playing. Apparently, members wives can play on select days (Mondays) or a woman can play at the discretion of the executive committee, which they have selectively granted in the past. Nevertheless, Garden City remains a male-dominated bastion of the golf world that we hope they continue to proudly defend.

And of course there are dozens of citations for the club being strictly men-only. Here are a few more:

https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-course/garden-city

https://clubandresortbusiness.com/change-at-muirfield-revives-question-of-private-club-membership-restrictions/

https://www.newsmax.com/us/golf-women-inclusion-cancel-culture/2021/05/03/id/1019978/

https://www.golflink.com/lifestyle/no-women-past-rock-chicagos-mens-only-golf-clubs

And of course there is the Robert Wiggins incident (quietly settled before discovery):

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/garden-city-golf-club-accused-of-race-bias-by-black-caddie

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/as-the-caddie-club-relationship-draws-new-scrutiny-some-creative-solutions-surface

It's quite clear that they it's an openly discriminatory institution. It openly discriminates against women, in addition to other accusations. Whether or not that's against the law or whether it's my business is irrelevant. My point, which is related to this post, is that for the purposes of rating clubs, I think this type of discriminatory behavior is non-trivially relevant to a club's rating.

You even state that you don't think (female) raters shouldn't be given any special access. Thus, you can see that this club's behavior might affect their ratings of the ratings of their close colleagues.

[Carl Johnson]

Garden City

--------

Camden
Mimosa Hills
Palmetto
Roaring Gap
Westhampton

NOTE:  Garden City rates at the top, the balance listed in alphabetical order -- all are fantastic!

Chris, Garden City?  Coming from you that is hard to believe. 


Wee Burn would top my list.  Among many things, they have shooting.  And the bowling alley (four lanes) has been repaired after it blew up several years ago.

[Chris Hughes]

Garden City

--------

Camden
Mimosa Hills
Palmetto
Roaring Gap
Westhampton

NOTE:  Garden City rates at the top, the balance listed in alphabetical order -- all are fantastic!

Chris, Garden City?  Coming from you that is hard to believe. 


Wee Burn would top my list.  Among many things, they have shooting.  And the bowling alley (four lanes) has been repaired after it blew up several years ago.

Good one Carl...   


While Garden City does top the stack-ranking for me, all the others are wonderful as well!


All have an exceptional golf course and an understated/laid-back vibe.  Westhampton has a newish clubhouse (but looks like it has been there a while), facilities for the others would be characterized as shabby chic at the best!!

Bethpage isn't a "club" per se, but it's special too.  (well there is the Nassau Players Club, but it's invite only and men only!)

Never did make it to Wee Burn but know it's terrific...

[Chris Hughes]

Trust me, don't believe everything you read...

There is a bit more description here:

https://top100golf.blogspot.com/2006/01/garden-city-golf-club.html

After posting on Garden City I have received a number of emails regarding Garden City's policy of women playing. Apparently, members wives can play on select days (Mondays) or a woman can play at the discretion of the executive committee, which they have selectively granted in the past. Nevertheless, Garden City remains a male-dominated bastion of the golf world that we hope they continue to proudly defend.

And of course there are dozens of citations for the club being strictly men-only. Here are a few more:

https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-course/garden-city

https://clubandresortbusiness.com/change-at-muirfield-revives-question-of-private-club-membership-restrictions/

https://www.newsmax.com/us/golf-women-inclusion-cancel-culture/2021/05/03/id/1019978/

https://www.golflink.com/lifestyle/no-women-past-rock-chicagos-mens-only-golf-clubs

And of course there is the Robert Wiggins incident (quietly settled before discovery):

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/garden-city-golf-club-accused-of-race-bias-by-black-caddie

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/as-the-caddie-club-relationship-draws-new-scrutiny-some-creative-solutions-surface

It's quite clear that they it's an openly discriminatory institution. It openly discriminates against women, in addition to other accusations. Whether or not that's against the law or whether it's my business is irrelevant. My point, which is related to this post, is that for the purposes of rating clubs, I think this type of discriminatory behavior is non-trivially relevant to a club's rating.

You even state that you don't think (female) raters shouldn't be given any special access. Thus, you can see that this club's behavior might affect their ratings of the ratings of their close colleagues.

None of them care about being "rated" -- it's a moot point. 

[Michael Morandi]

Michael,
No question a club is more than just the golf course.  Is anyone or any ranking saying otherwise?  We can and do rank almost everything on this site even though it is supposed to be a "golf architecture" discussion group.  I just played The Lake Course at The Olympic Club and had one of their famous burger dogs at their half-way house.  It is fantastic!  Should I up the rating of the golf course because of it?  Same goes for the showers at Merion, the clubhouse at Shinnecock Hills, the locker room at Seminole, Ben's Porch at Sand Hills,...We can rank and rate whatever we want, but the golf course is the golf course and best I can tell, if we are rating or ranking golf architecture, these other aspects of "the club" don't come into play.  That said, there are "best club" rankings out there where all these other factors come in to play.

Mark, you are absolutely correct and I did not mean to suggest that course rankings be altered to factor in these considerations. When I made the post, I was influenced by some saying (especially in the GBI) that  they were considering quitting their clubs due to average cost per round. I was simply suggesting that getting more out of a membership besides a round of golf is an important determinant in the willingness to leave, or to join for that matter. Clubs that foster camaraderie in a way where members want to hang out after a round are better insulated from pure economic calculations. My apologies if I fumbled my original post. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Do great clubs create cool members or do cool people join great clubs?

[jeffwarne]

I will say that in my experience the clubs that the overwhelming majority of foursomes that go out as one member, three guests seem to feel less like a club to me. In my experience these are the very top of the rankings type places and there just isn’t much member/member play. I think that’s a big reason why many members of those clubs also have a second club locally.

It's not a club, it's a resort with (mostly minor) barriers to access.


I'll never forget my first experience with an extremely highly ranked course where it took the member(who was incredibly well connected and well liked) over a month to get a tee time suitable to his mostly flexible schedule.

[Carl Johnson]

From my perspective the perfect private club would be one that, among other things, respects the members.  Members are listened to, and are entitled to vote on assessments and important issues.  Leadership complies with the club's charter and bylaws.  Members are kept informed.  Club isn't run secretively by a small group of members.  I'm not sure such a club exists.

[Daryl David]

From my perspective the perfect private club would be one that, among other things, respects the members.  Members are listened to, and are entitled to vote on assessments and important issues.  Leadership complies with the club's charter and bylaws.  Members are kept informed.  Club isn't run secretively by a small group of members.  I'm not sure such a club exists.

I would add that the members treat the club employees with respect and kindness.  Just like they are family. Always looking for ways to appreciate them and recognize the ones that are exceptional. I have belonged to clubs that disrespecting staff is immediate cause for being expelled from the club.

[Chris Hughes]

From my perspective the perfect private club would be one that, among other things, respects the members.  Members are listened to, and are entitled to vote on assessments and important issues.  Leadership complies with the club's charter and bylaws.  Members are kept informed.  Club isn't run secretively by a small group of members.  I'm not sure such a club exists.

I would add that the members treat the club employees with respect and kindness.  Just like they are family. Always looking for ways to appreciate them and recognize the ones that are exceptional.


I have belonged to clubs that disrespecting staff is immediate cause for being expelled from the club.

If what you describe there in blue isn't the norm, the Membership Chair/Committee are incompetent.


What you describe there in red should be exceptionally rare (assumes competent Membership function), if not non-existent...


...that said, if for some reason kernels of that nature suddenly start popping the club could have a burgeoning management problem -- good read here:


https://golfprop.com/blog/the-private-club-culture-passive-aggression/

[Carl Johnson]

From my perspective the perfect private club would be one that, among other things, respects the members.  Members are listened to, and are entitled to vote on assessments and important issues.  Leadership complies with the club's charter and bylaws.  Members are kept informed.  Club isn't run secretively by a small group of members.  I'm not sure such a club exists.

I would add that the members treat the club employees with respect and kindness.  Just like they are family. Always looking for ways to appreciate them and recognize the ones that are exceptional. I have belonged to clubs that disrespecting staff is immediate cause for being expelled from the club.

Daryl, I second that.  Fortunately, my club experience has been very positive in that respect, in fact so much so that I've probably assumed, wrongly, that such was the norm.