[Steve Burrows]

Scott, please tell me more about the old Coffin either on the thread or by PM? I'm dying to know more about what it used to be!

Most of those rounds came when I was a teenager barely aware of anything, much less GCA - so take this with a few grains of salt, and I hope Tim Liddy will see this and correct me where applicable.  Here's what I remember:

-Back then, there were few if any retention areas.  I could not tell you how or how well it drained (I suspect badly), but when skies were clear, it was a much 'drier' course for the most part - your misses went into trees or unmaintained areas rather than water.  I do remember some either really rudimentary or really poorly-maintained french drains all over the place.

-Both the middle-of-the-fairway trees were there, but I only recall the one on #1 coming into play; I think what's now 6 could be played up the left.  The buttonhook fairway on what's now 11 was not as severe - that changed to make room to put 17 at the water's edge.

-And most/all the holes along the riverbanks were farther away from the water's edge.  Much like Riverside, you could totally forget that you were riverside.  Liddy uses the river as a MUCH more prominent element.  

-The back 9 holes on the hill were similar to their present forms and were then as now a very cool change of pace.  (EDIT:  No, I guess they were not the same - just looked at historic aerials and 1971 shows a much different picture!  Still the coolest part of the property, though.)
 
-There was virtually nothing interesting/memorable in or around most of the greens.  And the bunkers were typically 'cheap muni' shallow and bland.  The years had worn away whatever character Mr. Diddel had inititally put in all those decades ago.  What's there now is a huge improvement and not at all similar.

-It was a very challenging test - and a favorite of the wagering set.  I will admit to getting a sheltered suburban kid's thrill out of watching some very high stakes games conducted very much out in the open by men of very menacing countenance.

-They had THE BEST Blennd.  Cold, mixed perfectly.

Scott,

I grew up in Indianapolis as well and had the (unfortunate??) privilege of playing most of my early golf on the city courses that are being mentioned throughout this thread; my high school even called Sahm our home course for a couple of years.  Anyway, your recollection of Coffin is spot-on.  The blandness of the greens is what is most memorable for me, as well as the veritable lake that would form after a heavy rain on the old 7th hole.  That said, I also recall liking the old 3rd hole (which played from a tee near the current 2nd green to the current 4th green) on which a good drive was necessary in order that the next shot might clear the "canyon.". Of course, I also watched a lot of car windows, and even houses, get hit with balls when the hole played in that direction.

Also, good call on the "Blend." I haven't had one of those in years.

[Nigel Islam]

Thanks Scott and Steve. I have often wondered how different the old Coffin, Brickyard, and Fort were from what they are now.

[Scott Sander]

Nigel-

One of my great disappointments (and I've said as much here before) is that my interest in golf's playing fields did not develop earlier in my life, so I never seized, as a young man, the opportunity to play the old courses at Fort Harrison, the Speedway, or Woodland before their revamps.

I have an odd internal conflict of being fascinated by both Bill Diddel and Pete Dye.  It gets harder to find places to enjoy the former because the latter keeps plowing 'em under and re-doing it all!

[Nigel Islam]

There is still a fair amount of Diddel down in the Southwest. Evansville Country Club and Rolling Hills are a couple with his influence that are solid courses. Plenty of less travel worthy stuff too. I seem to remember that Dye and Diddel had, shall I say, an intriguing relationship. Not what I would classify as a normal mentor type.

[Bart Bradley]

I'm not sure why anyone is even mentioning Thatcher or Doulas...I don't really like to be so critical but they are truly just typical munis. Tree line up and back fairways. Poorly conditioned and nothing really noteworthy.

Now Rock Hollow on the other hand is incredible. It is really under the radar.  Some really really good holes and a fun round of golf. I wish it were a bit closer to Indy and I would make it there far more often.

Josh:

I agree entirely about Thatcher.  I was being very sarcastic.  Thatcher is not good but neither is South Grove or Douglas or....

Bart

[Nigel Islam]

The worst course I ever played in Indy (non executive) was Dakota Landing on the east side. South Grove and Shank are not even on the same planet as being that bad.

[John Nixon]

Thanks.

I didn't realize that it cut across the fairway. I thought it was just up the right side. That certainly will have a big effect on how it plays.

OK, I played Coffin a couple of times over the last few weeks. I like the new configuration of #15 better. A good drive still leaves the possibility of reaching in 2, but if you're too far back you have to put some thought to the layup rather than just running a shot up the fairway. The hole requires a bit more thought, and makes it a little more challenging.

[John Nixon]

I had forgotten about the discussion in this thread about Coffin. I left my position working downtown Indianapolis a while ago, and since I'm rarely down there I haven't played Coffin in probably 8-10 years. I do know the tree in the fairway at #1 was lost a few  years ago to a storm. I will make an effort to play the course sometime this season.


I live on the north side, and do play Sahm quite often. Conditioning of the course is generally good these days, whoever's maintaining the course seems to know what they're doing even with it being a very busy course.

[JLahrman]

John I love how you brought this back up from the dead like it hasn't been 11 years! But I did play my first round of golf in Indiana in a looooooong time last November at Otter Creek. Not sure if that course (the original 18) belongs on the list of best publics in a sneaky good state for public golf like Indiana, but if it doesn't that's pretty high praise for the quality of golf in the state.

[Brian Finn]

1) French Lick Resort (Dye), French Lick (m)
2) French Lick Resort (Ross), French Lick (c)
3) Chariot Run, Laconia (m)
4) Harrison Hills, Attica (c)
5) Fort GC, Indianapolis (m)
6) Belterra GC, Florence (m)
7) Warren GC at Notre Dame, South Bend (m)
  Sultan’s Run, Jasper (m)*
9) Birck Boilermaker Golf Complex (Kampen), West Lafayette (m)
10) Brickyard Crossing, Speedway (m)

Interesting to see what has (and hasn't) changed in the last 10 years.

1. French Lick Resort (Pete Dye)
2. French Lick Resort (Donald Ross)
3. The PFAU Course at Indiana
4. Warren GC at Notre Dame
5. Birck Boilermaker Golf Complex (Kampen)
6. Birck Boilermaker Golf Complex (Ackerman-Allen)
7. The Fort
8. Brickyard Crossing
9. Chariot Run
10. Harrison Hills

[John Nixon]

John I love how you brought this back up from the dead like it hasn't been 11 years! But I did play my first round of golf in Indiana in a looooooong time last November at Otter Creek. Not sure if that course (the original 18) belongs on the list of best publics in a sneaky good state for public golf like Indiana, but if it doesn't that's pretty high praise for the quality of golf in the state.

I've never played Otter Creek, but I've only lived in central Indiana since 1982, so I may get to it yet.


But I agree with your point, which was made several times earlier in the thread. If the likes of Otter Creek, Purgatory, Trophy Club, Bear Slide, Rock Hollow, etc., aren't making your top 10 list then you're in a pretty good state for public golf.

[Richard Hetzel]

I always liked 6 for those reasons. Also agree on not liking death on both sides of the hole. I remember 17s green being a very exacting target. I liked the holes on top of the hill.

 I'd be anxious to hear critiques of Riverside, Sahm, South Grove, Smock etc. as well. Not as good as Eagle Creek but at least a couple decent holes in the bunch. I always liked 15 and 13 at Riverside.

Have not played Riverside. I have, within the last few years, played South Grove, Smock and Sahm. they were OK golf courses. I probably liked Smock the best out of those. I only played South Grove because of persistent rumors of it's impending closing. It had a few decent holes, otherwise it was fairly boring.

[John Nixon]

Have not played Riverside. I have, within the last few years, played South Grove, Smock and Sahm. they were OK golf courses. I probably liked Smock the best out of those. I only played South Grove because of persistent rumors of it's impending closing. It had a few decent holes, otherwise it was fairly boring.

At one time, as I remember it, there was talk of closing both South Grove and Riverside. They were situated very close to each other in downtown Indianapolis. Decision was made to close Riverside and so far keep South Grove open.  Riverside is now a nature park with the old cart paths serving as walking paths. I always thought Riverside was easily a better course than South Grove but they didn't ask me.


I played Smock once about 20 years ago. Did not find it interesting enough to ever play again. I play Sahm often. This morning, actually. It's got enough early Pete and Alice Dye to it that in my opinion it's better than any Indy muni not named Eagle Creek or Coffin. And probably in better shape than either of those. The green complexes especially at Sahm are a bit more challenging than you might expect.

[Richard Hetzel]

Here are a few pics of South Grove, Sahm and Smock golf courses.

South Grove GC


Sahm GC

Smock GC

[John Nixon]

Well I never thought I'd see photos of Smock, South Grove and Sahm posted here. Thanks.

[Richard Hetzel]

Well I never thought I'd see photos of Smock, South Grove and Sahm posted here. Thanks.

I'll play ANYWHERE, at least once. Hey now....

[Mark Pritchett]

Glad to see Harrison Hills is still on the list.

[Nigel Islam]

1) French Lick Resort (Dye), French Lick (m)
2) French Lick Resort (Ross), French Lick (c)
3) Chariot Run, Laconia (m)
4) Harrison Hills, Attica (c)
5) Fort GC, Indianapolis (m)
6) Belterra GC, Florence (m)
7) Warren GC at Notre Dame, South Bend (m)
  Sultan’s Run, Jasper (m)*
9) Birck Boilermaker Golf Complex (Kampen), West Lafayette (m)
10) Brickyard Crossing, Speedway (m)

Interesting to see what has (and hasn't) changed in the last 10 years.

1. French Lick Resort (Pete Dye)
2. French Lick Resort (Donald Ross)
3. The PFAU Course at Indiana
4. Warren GC at Notre Dame
5. Birck Boilermaker Golf Complex (Kampen)
6. Birck Boilermaker Golf Complex (Ackerman-Allen)
7. The Fort
8. Brickyard Crossing
9. Chariot Run
10. Harrison Hills

The Ross course in French Lick is easily the best course in French Lick. I even think the clubhouse is better than Pete Dye.

[Nigel Islam]

John I love how you brought this back up from the dead like it hasn't been 11 years! But I did play my first round of golf in Indiana in a looooooong time last November at Otter Creek. Not sure if that course (the original 18) belongs on the list of best publics in a sneaky good state for public golf like Indiana, but if it doesn't that's pretty high praise for the quality of golf in the state.

I've never played Otter Creek, but I've only lived in central Indiana since 1982, so I may get to it yet.


But I agree with your point, which was made several times earlier in the thread. If the likes of Otter Creek, Purgatory, Trophy Club, Bear Slide, Rock Hollow, etc., aren't making your top 10 list then you're in a pretty good state for public golf.

Chris Clouser wrote a pretty good book on public courses in Indiana several years ago.

[John Nixon]

Not official, but I did ask at the pro shop at Sahm the other day if they knew what the long-term prospects for Coffin and South Grove are. To the best of their knowledge yes, South Grove will be joining Riverside in NLE land (The South Grove website says they expect to remain open "at least through 2024"). Money will supposedly then be put into Coffin so it can accommodate all the downtown muni players who will have gone from 3 courses to 1 over the span of a few years. I'll believe that when I see it.

[Will Thrasher]

Scott I grew up in Carmel and have played pretty much every golf course in Indiana except Victoria National.  For you to say that Prairie View is not even Top 5 in Hamilton County for PUBLIC golf courses, you must be joking right, remeber we are talking public Scott, maybe you were thinking private too, which I would agree with you then.  If you include Purgatory, Bear Slide, Plum Creek, Prairie View, and then after that you start getting into pretty bland public courses.  If you ask the general public golfers, or as we say on here Retail golfers in the Indy area, I guarentee you that everyone would say how Prairie View is one of the best publics in the Indianapolis area.  Conditions, views, no homes on golf course, and a pretty good course for Trent Jones Jr. I would say that Prairie View is pretty nice.

Also, not that I agree with Golf Digest often.  In there best in state rankings, which include public and private, prairie view is ranked #7.  So Scott maybe you need to check your facts .

Just to compare here is Golf Digests Best in State ranking, which has both private and public
1. Victoria National
2.  Crooked Stick
3.  French Lick Dye
4.  Sycamore Hills
5.  Wolf Run
6.  French Lick Ross
7.  Prairie View
8.  Rock Hollow
9.  Brickyard Crossing
10.  Otter Creek
11.  Woodland CC
12. South Bend
13.  Sagamore
14.  The Fort
15.  Purgatory

9 holers may fall into a different category for Digest list, but I think the Culver Academy 9 hole is still the best I've played in Indiana.

[David Wuthrich]

Culver is one of the best 9 hole courses in the USA!

[Chris Clouser]

Chris Clouser wrote a pretty good book on public courses in Indiana several years ago.

The book is still available on Amazon or through me.  A Month of Saturdays.  I had to republish it after the original publisher went under and I had to fight to get the copyright back.  Thanks for the plug Nigel.

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