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Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2024, 03:23:56 PM »
Did Ran win? Is the word finally out? Did the collective espousing of this site from olden days take root, grow, get broadcast on various platforms and become prevalent enough that the didactic purpose of this site is now, gulp, moot?
Social media is to niche interests as the printing press was to education. It facilitates the transmission of information, and connects like minded individuals. I think there is significant variance on what social media is when we talk about it here. In very real sense, as Wayne points out, GCA.com very much fits into the category of social media. On the contrary, outlets like Fried Egg Golf are much closer to media outlets than social media, even if they do leverage social media in their products.

Do I think Ran has won? It's hard to say. Golf architecture is still an incredibly niche subject even in golf culture (there isn't really even much discussion of it on the golf subreddits). That said, I think the site has certainly influenced the types of architecture and courses that are preferred. Still, it's such a broad category, that I don't know whether the kids taking their instagram photos is an appreciation of architecture, or an appreciation of agronomy. They're certainly not discussing angles or kickers on any of my social media feeds.


Coveted spot #25!

Good points Matt. I don’t discount that GCA.com’s Discussion Group is in fact social media. I guess I should’ve clarified a bit. But the discussion has been good nonetheless. I think people understood what I meant.


As for the “kids taking their instagram photos”, I have my reservations about their utility or what they’re even appreciating, outside of just getting to play great courses. I suppose I should be very deliberate in saying that TFE or Cooke Jar (to use just two examples) aren’t in the same category as the “look where I played today” Insta and X accounts. Personally, I’m taking a GCA.com Sean Arble review 10-0 over that sort of thing.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2024, 03:27:01 PM by Ben Sims »

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2024, 10:03:57 AM »
It's interesting that this thread so far seems to have skipped the generation of editorial voices whose work both postdates the founding of this site and predates the rise of social media. Ran, Brad Klein, Tom Dunne, Geoff Shackelford, Joe Passov, Mike Clayton and many others (including practicing architects) have written in various media outlets for decades about what makes one golf course or hole more interesting than another. Along with the contents of this site, their scholarship and expertise has influenced the current social media influencer class greatly.


What we're seeing is what Marshall McLuhan posited decades ago: that a new medium initially consists of the content of the previous one. For a long time, social media channels were mainly about signal-boosting the editorial output of the media that came before. Now, since its been around for the better part of a generation, it's finding its own native forms of expression, but by its structural nature it's a bit limited because tweets and Reels and such don't convey nuance the way good writing can.


In a lot of ways, social media feels like the ultimate PR machine primarily, tailor-made for self-promotion. I don't see it as a conveyor of depth or nuance, though. When it comes to our subject of mutual obsession, it's done a great job at giving a pretty big audience an inch-deep view of GCA. Let me be clear: this is a great thing. But it will always be the case that the content of GolfClubAtlas and the long-form work of deep thinkers will be necessary for those who want a deeper understanding.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Chris Mavros

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2024, 11:28:45 AM »
An aspect of GCA that might be undervalued is how much of a reference source it is now.  You want to find out more about a particular course or designer, chances are there are at least a few threads with some very insightful posts.  And that continues.  As Tim points out, GCA delves much deeper than other forms of social media.  For those who are interested in learning more, it is alive and well. 


 

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2024, 09:25:49 AM »
Ben,


For me, no. Social media didn’t kill GCA. I did sign up for The Fried Egg this year and think those guys do a pretty good job with course reviews, but GCA’s discussion group is not something I’ve seen elsewhere.
Tim Weiman

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2024, 11:07:47 AM »
If so, I wouldn't know.
Good or bad, this is the place for information and...discussion.

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2024, 08:54:35 PM »
I do miss the course photo tours that people use to share on this site.  Now it is much easier to share a photo on Instagram/Facebook/X from your phone.  I would love to see this site be able to easily post photos that can be shared and discussed. I think Ran did a good job of filtering who could post on here and I think that has made this a great place for golf architecture discussion.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Will Thrasher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2024, 09:43:55 AM »
As a (albeit older) millennial, I haven't run across anything that replaces the discussion on this site. I enjoy Fried Egg/NLU, but this is the place I go first/frequent the most.
Twitter: @will_thrasher_

Adam Uttley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2024, 02:19:09 PM »
No, people losing their shit about Aimpoint for 5 pages did

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2024, 08:16:42 PM »
No, people losing their shit about Aimpoint for 5 pages did


 :D

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2024, 10:02:00 PM »
Time to put an end to this thread. Buckle up.

1. GCA was around for 5-10 years before I came on board, and I've been on board for close to 20 years. By "GCA," we have to ask ourselves Do we mean the discussion group only? When was the last time that you looked at and counted the 147 Custodians, read a Feature Interview, perused the Courses by Country and checked a review, or even noticed that there is something called "Tags" in the main menu bar?

2. GCA has been advertisement-free in its entirety. That makes it sooooo different from social media, which really should be called socio-capitalist media. They are all about making money; it's just that a new generation figured out how to con an older generation into thinking that they care about golf course architecture. They care more about making money, so they fly drones and they craft pearly essays, and they find any connection to golf, to sell their subscriptions. It's sigma, no cap, but recognize it for what it is.

3. Who are the purists left among us? I'm fortunate to interact with Bausch and Cirba in the Walter Travis Society, and they are shining lights. In addition to the Cobbs Creek project, their photography and writing have kept the Discussion Group moving in a proper direction. Every time I sit down to write an In My Opinion piece, I ask myself if it will measure up to Cirba. It won't, so I cease the writing.

4. Why didn't the admins add a "Feature Photoview" to the masthead? One would have to ask them. It seems that words on a subject are not as offensive as photos. I remember the first Myopia thread that called Myopia by name. It was from that dirsuptor, Jon Cavalier, and the old guard did its level best to chew him a new one. They learned that Lawyer Jon has a tough arse and he flew the coop for bluer skies. There have always been a lot of Stay off my lawn grumps in the Discussion Group; the fewer of them that stick around, the better this place will be.

5. This Discussion Group is an incredible blend of professionals (architects, superintendents, builders, PGA professionals, instructors, and the occasional touring pro) and hobbyists (high-end club members to public course slashers.) No one is paid to present their view on the GCA_DG, although some attempt to parlay and leverage for access and other benefits.

6. There is a list-serv for Language teachers called FL Teach. It is run out of SUNY-Cortland and SUNY-Buffalo by two retired professors. I wonder if they had any sort of succession plan, or growth plan. I receive posts from time to time, but nowhere near the number that I received during the salad days of 2000-2015. I miss the interaction, but I'm not the same guy anymore. I'm 5-8 years away from retirement, but I don't know where the 20s 30s and 40s language teachers are hanging out. The List-Serv is in dire straits, way worse than the GCA_DG.

7. How big will the offer have to be, for the admins to sell GCA? What potential could such a buyer see in the consistent viewership that frequents this environment? If all the folks who would miss it, are gone, does the original matter, and does the scope of the next iteration of GCA need to remain faithful to the original?

8. I like Erik Barzeski.

9. The compelling voices that contribute at the highest level, are the ones that want to/should get paid for their words. They won't give things away for free around here. The most frequent voices are not always the most compelling, but they certainly are the most dedicated. Ever since the admins took away the number-of-posts tally, the video game element has gone away, and no one can point to owning the label of GCA God.

10. "Didactic" is an interesting word, from the opening post. Was it didactic, informative, or a blend of the two? In the 1990s, so many great old courses were miskept and mismanaged, but the bones were there. Then came the renaissance, thanks to the crash of 2008, when architects convinced clubs that their courses needed to be returned to origin form. They weren't wrong, and they cashed in. What happens when the new-build commissions and restoration commissions drain off? That's when the GCA_DG will truly face extinction.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2024, 10:06:07 PM »
You lost me with point 8. Turn off the lights.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2024, 10:19:21 PM »
I think y'all are overthinking this topic.  There are just more choices for the same people to read now and so time gets divided between the various sites. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2024, 10:20:00 PM »
I think y'all are overthinking this topic.  There are just more choices for the same people to read now and so time gets divided between the various sites.
Yes, plus… The ease of posting images to other platforms has done a lot, too. Even images posted here are often awkwardly side-scrolling, etc.

GCA (the practice, not the site) is inherently visual.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2024, 10:40:15 PM »
I am one of the few remaining who migrated here from Golfweb/Traditionalgolf.com.  Most are gone.  Days of Kings Putter on West Coast are gone.


This site is 2003 in terms of board software...maybe even 1993.  That is an annual disappointment.  While there are good discussions about GCA on other sites (Tommy's comes to mind), this one has more traffic and engagement.  So I check in here still, and post occasionally. 


Just wish board owners (Ran and Joe) would update the software to enable more "modern" topic presentations and discussions.  But I have been saying that for 10+ years, with nothing done. Do a fund raiser to pay for some 20 year old to do the upgrade and migration of old threads.  Not hard.  But as I said, this has been something to do for the last decade.


Enjoy the board as it is, I guess.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2024, 11:55:05 PM »
I am one of the few remaining who migrated here from Golfweb/Traditionalgolf.com.  Most are gone.  Days of Kings Putter on West Coast are gone.


This site is 2003 in terms of board software...maybe even 1993.  That is an annual disappointment.  While there are good discussions about GCA on other sites (Tommy's comes to mind), this one has more traffic and engagement.  So I check in here still, and post occasionally. 


Just wish board owners (Ran and Joe) would update the software to enable more "modern" topic presentations and discussions.  But I have been saying that for 10+ years, with nothing done. Do a fund raiser to pay for some 20 year old to do the upgrade and migration of old threads.  Not hard.  But as I said, this has been something to do for the last decade.


Enjoy the board as it is, I guess.


Kevin,


Nice to see Tradionalgolf.com. I can still remember Tommy calling to inform me about the migration to GCA.com.


Tim
Tim Weiman

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2024, 09:11:33 AM »
No, people losing their shit about Aimpoint for 5 pages did


Adam


That thread wasn't really about Aimpoint, it was more about pace of play which is a regular topic on here. Even playing the best courses in the world can become a slog if it takes forever to get round.


Niall

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2024, 09:23:24 AM »
GCA (the practice, not the site) is inherently visual.


Or you can feel it with your feet  ;D

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2024, 10:05:17 AM »
 Let’s just ask ourselves a question when starting a topic. Could this lead to a frank discussion about some aspect of golf course architecture?


  I miss the powerhouse posters of ten years ago and wish them well.
AKA Mayday

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2024, 10:09:55 AM »
Thanks Mike, I'm doing OK  ;)


Niall

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2024, 10:12:55 AM »
Thanks Mike, I'm doing OK  ;)


Niall


When you look up “ powerhouse poster” there is a photo of you.
AKA Mayday

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2024, 10:22:37 AM »
The site clearly isn’t what it used to be, but it’s hard for me to see social media as the culprit. Other than the ease of posting pictures, there’s still nothing quite like this site.
This site is clearly not what it once was, but I don’t think the rise of other social media platforms has much, if anything, to do with that.


I’m not exactly sure when I joined GCA.com, except that I know it was right after I read about the site in Sports Illustrated probably nearly 25 years ago now.  Since then a lot of guys who were tremendously knowledgeable and very serious about GCA and really made the site what it was have either left, or rarely post anymore; Tommy Naccarato, Tom Paul, Pat Mucci, Tom Huckaby, Dan Kelly, Geoff Shackelford, and Scott Burroughs leap to mind, and I’m sure I’m missing some important names.  I learned a LOT from those guys; I’m grateful, and I miss both their wisdom and their stewardship of our game.



They left, I’m sure, for different reasons, but in some cases that I know of firsthand, it was the prevalence of non-architecture threads (of which I am clearly a guilty party), but also because posters were expressing opinions with no real knowledge of the particular golf course (or other topic) being discussed, along with a general tone that is often just unacceptable.  Guys write things here all the time that I doubt they would ever say in person to friends over a beer, and they do it when they know little or nothing about the subject at hand. That all too often becomes nothing more than a tiresome griping session.


I still believe that there no better place to learn about GCA than this site.  I continue to learn a lot from the architects that post here; as one example, I’ve enjoyed and benefited from reading what Jeff Brauer has to say for a long, long time now, and I hope that continues.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2024, 10:26:22 AM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2024, 12:25:43 PM »
As someone who doesn't use other platforms, GCA is my go to place.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Peter Bowman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2024, 12:31:32 PM »
In the dental world of mine, there a site called Dentaltown where dentists and salespeople discuss their jobs (and many of them about how much they hate it).  It bustled from 1998 til about 2014 when most of the new docs chose FB for discussions.  Not long after, Dentaltown created an app, which led to an uptick and interactions. Dentaltown already had some monetized cash flow to support that by sellign online CE courses. 

I dont know if Ran/GCA have the ability to monetize GCA enough to justify the expense of converting all the stored data into an app and cloud.

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2024, 03:43:12 PM »
Podcasts have certainly made a difference, and I think Ran was considering having a podcast (and I still think he should!). The real in-depth information that we all crave from a GCA perspective is happening on podcasts. Listening to Trevor Dormer or Kyle Franz talk for an hour on a podcast is worth a lot of threads on this site. You not only learn about the latest projects, but often you get a 'behind the curtain' look at some of the challenges that those designing/building/maintaining/owning courses face on a daily basis. I would LOVE Ran to start a GCA podcast. The feature interviews do such a great job of asking the right questions, but it would be presented in a format that is easier to digest, less time consuming for the guest, and more appealing to multi-generations.


If this site is truly about education (as I believe that it is!), then it's the best way forward.


As for the DG, it needs an injection of more posts/thread creation from the best minds. Some are doing that, but many that we all love, follow, and adore, just don't have the time. How cool would it be if Brian Schneider created a thread from one of his scouting trips and did write-ups on all the interesting features he found on his travels? He posts small bits on Instagram, but it only whets the appetite for more!


Finally, the Courses by Country needs an update. Some of the write-ups are dated, and many courses have done work since then. Ran has posted various course write-ups on Instagram, but you can't zoom in on the photos, and it's tough reading going back and forth from the comments to the photos to line them up. I'd love to see new write-ups in this space on courses like Ladera, Wicker Point, Lost Rail, as well as those lesser known courses that I know Ran is always seeing.


At the end of the day, Ran is a true thought leader and can shape the discussion like few can. When he says a course is worth seeing, or it has more merit than most, I listen.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2024, 03:45:42 PM by Tim Gallant »

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Social Media kill GCA.com?
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2024, 05:44:42 PM »
I am one of the few remaining who migrated here from Golfweb/Traditionalgolf.com.  Most are gone.  Days of Kings Putter on West Coast are gone.


This site is 2003 in terms of board software...maybe even 1993.  That is an annual disappointment.  While there are good discussions about GCA on other sites (Tommy's comes to mind), this one has more traffic and engagement.  So I check in here still, and post occasionally. 


Just wish board owners (Ran and Joe) would update the software to enable more "modern" topic presentations and discussions.  But I have been saying that for 10+ years, with nothing done. Do a fund raiser to pay for some 20 year old to do the upgrade and migration of old threads.  Not hard.  But as I said, this has been something to do for the last decade.


Enjoy the board as it is, I guess.


Kevin,


Nice to see Tradionalgolf.com. I can still remember Tommy calling to inform me about the migration to GCA.com.


Tim


Same!!!
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!