East and West. Architects care

[mike_malone]

As I drove to my club yesterday it was quite sunny and I looked at the indicator in my car which had the E displayed.  I knew our 10th hole heads in that direction and number 1 goes west. I recall watching the PGA at Whistling Straits where the 18th was into the setting sun. That seemed to be an architectural sin.


How rigorous is this rule to have 1 going West and 18 East?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Some architects prioritise it quite highly on their list of desirable design musts.


I don’t. It is a bit lower down for me.

[Tom_Doak]

As I drove to my club yesterday it was quite sunny and I looked at the indicator in my car which had the E displayed.  I knew our 10th hole heads in that direction and number 1 goes west. I recall watching the PGA at Whistling Straits where the 18th was into the setting sun. That seemed to be an architectural sin.


How rigorous is this rule to have 1 going West and 18 East?

For most projects it makes sense if you can do it.  But if you’ve got an east-west property and you want returning nines, you have to pick your poison - either the first hole will have to play east, or the last hole to the west.  (See Barnbougle or Teeth of the Dog.) And sometimes the location of the lodge is on the west end of the course and both opening and closing holes play into the sun (a la Pebble Beach).


Daily play sometimes isn’t the deciding factor, either.  At Whistling Straits I think the 18th is the result of wanting to play along the coast through 17 and not being able to put the house out on the bluff.  But even at TPC Sawgrass (where there was nothing to start) the 18th plays to the west . . . because that was preferred for spectators and for TV!

[Jim_Coleman]

   Hard to believe it’s terribly important. Other than big tournaments, which finish late in the day, I’d think 95%+ rounds at most courses finish well before sunset. I suppose all things being equal, you may as well not finish facing west. But how often are things equal? It’s not like baseball, where the field must face north so the sun is never in the batters’ eyes.

[mike_malone]

Not just finishing but also starting in the morning.

[Kalen Braley]

Pebble 18 also heads west, seems like it would of been a sin not to build that hole...

[Jim_Coleman]

   Starting a round facing east seems even less of a problem. Not too many rounds start at sunrise. That’s when the grounds crew usually does its work.

[Ronald Montesano]

   Starting a round facing east seems even less of a problem. Not too many rounds start at sunrise. That’s when the grounds crew usually does its work.

Sunrise and sun-up are two different elements. Sun-up is a three-four hour period, where you are playing into the rising sun. It matters.

At Sagamore in New York state, Donald JR Jr. went against his instincts, because the opening tee shot plays down a bluff, toward a lovely lake, and needed to happen.

[Sean_A]

It can make a huge difference in the UK during winter. The sun is low and when it does shine, there is no question it can cause issues. It’s probably my biggest beef with Sherwood Forest. Brutal finishing holes into the sun.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean


For the couple of days a year that the sun shines in the UK, I think you can put up with it.


Niall

[Sean_A]

Sean

For the couple of days a year that the sun shines in the UK, I think you can put up with it.

Niall

I can put up with it, but I am not a member. I haven’t been back in winter.

Ciao

[mike_beene]

The Cowboys stadium sun issue makes the golf question seem very minor.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Again, it is an overplayed design constraint (certainly in GB&I).


Of course it is not ideal. But no golf course has had every design decision as the ideal.


If an architect has the luxury of heading away from and back to the clubhouse in any direction without negatively effecting his knock-on routing decisions then yeah, why not avoid the sun. But that doesn’t often happen…


Follow-on question: Would you prefer your 1st hole in to the rising sun or your driving range? That’s also a decision that sometimes has to be made.


(N.B. to Ron: If the issue is that “sun-up” is a 3-4 hour state, we better not route the entire front nine easterly either. Perhaps out and back west to east is the only viable option).

[Tony_Muldoon]

Follow-on question: Would you prefer your 1st hole in to the rising sun or your driving range? That’s also a decision that sometimes has to be made.

I can't see how you would ever choose to prioritize the driving range on this one.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Pretty much agree with everything said here in that it is of minor importance.


The land dictates not the position of the sun.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Follow-on question: Would you prefer your 1st hole in to the rising sun or your driving range? That’s also a decision that sometimes has to be made.

I can't see how you would ever choose to prioritize the driving range on this one.

On the contrary, Mr. Muldoon. It’s not a straightforward decision whether to prioritise 50 shots in to the rising sun versus a drive and an approach on the course.


On another note, does no-one think it ironic that on a website where everyone loves blind shots, we can’t hack one or two shots in to the sun that we might momentarily lose track of?

[Robin_Hiseman]

I'm not ever concerned about playing into the sun, because it means:


a: it is sunny
b: I am on a golf course

[Charlie Goerges]

What's always frustrated me about the logic of this rule of thumb (and others) is where do you draw the line? If the 18th isn't into the setting sun, what about the 17th? Or the 16th? What about the change of the seasons? The apparent angle of the sun is very different in June than October (It varies by up to 23.5° throughout the year).


Better to just build the best possible course I would think.

[Tim_Weiman]

   Starting a round facing east seems even less of a problem. Not too many rounds start at sunrise. That’s when the grounds crew usually does its work.

Sunrise and sun-up are two different elements. Sun-up is a three-four hour period, where you are playing into the rising sun. It matters.

At Sagamore in New York state, Donald JR Jr. went against his instincts, because the opening tee shot plays down a bluff, toward a lovely lake, and needed to happen.

Ronald,


Nothing wrong with the opening hole at the Sagamore. It’s pretty cool and fits with the whole Lake George community.


Tim

[James Reader]

It can make a huge difference in the UK during winter. The sun is low and when it does shine, there is no question it can cause issues. It’s probably my biggest beef with Sherwood Forest. Brutal finishing holes into the sun.

Ciao

I’ve read you say this before about Sherwood Sean. It’s interesting because I’ve been a member for over 40 years and never thought it a significant problem but I assumed I have just got so used to it that I cease to notice it. I’ve also always tended to play more in the mornings in Winter than late afternoon.


Seeing this referenced again though nudged me to think about it a bit more. In fact the last shot that plays anything close to due west is the second to the 12th. The 13, 14, 15, 17 and 18 all play if anything a little south of south west. Obviously, at certain times of year that can still be into a fairly low afternoon sun, but if an architect is trying to avoid that completely at UK latitudes it would be extremely restrictive. Not just west-facing shots would have to be avoided on the back nine but anything much to the west of south-facing.

[Sean_A]

It can make a huge difference in the UK during winter. The sun is low and when it does shine, there is no question it can cause issues. It’s probably my biggest beef with Sherwood Forest. Brutal finishing holes into the sun.

Ciao

I’ve read you say this before about Sherwood Sean. It’s interesting because I’ve been a member for over 40 years and never thought it a significant problem but I assumed I have just got so used to it that I cease to notice it. I’ve also always tended to play more in the mornings in Winter than late afternoon.


Seeing this referenced again though nudged me to think about it a bit more. In fact the last shot that plays anything close to due west is the second to the 12th. The 13, 14, 15, 17 and 18 all play if anything a little south of south west. Obviously, at certain times of year that can still be into a fairly low afternoon sun, but if an architect is trying to avoid that completely at UK latitudes it would be extremely restrictive. Not just west-facing shots would have to be avoided on the back nine but anything much to the west of south-facing.

James

I am not suggesting there is a better routing alternative, just that I noticed it twice at Sherwood on several holes finishing in winter. It’s the only good example I can think of.

Ciao