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Tim Martin

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Re: Elie to restrict visitors
« Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 04:35:34 PM »
My son played Elie solo in the middle of September after making the tee time quite a ways in advance. He said he loved everything about the day and couldn't remember being treated more graciously as a guest anywhere he has played. From the pictures and the 45 second video he sent me the course looks spectacular. I don’t think it’s too much to ask to have Elie operate as a private club during the designated time considering how generous they are the rest of the year. Membership should come with some privileges.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:37:37 PM by Tim Martin »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Elie to restrict visitors
« Reply #26 on: Today at 11:32:13 AM »
A private club is just that....private.  They don't owe the general public access to anything.  These golf clubs in the UK don't owe me "stewardship" to allow me to play their golf course.

In a very naive sense, of course this is true. This perspective, however, ignores the social compact as the basis for property.

If limited, precious resources fall into the hands of too few in a society, and those few do not act as good stewards, don’t be surprised if the state steps in to preserve some type of status quo.
Matt,


Don’t forget the “American model” provides public access to more than 70% of the golf courses in the United States.


The conversation gets distorted when the “American model” is assumed to mean private clubs.


Beyond that, Jeff Warne brought up the subject of Ballybunion. I fondly remember the days of the beloved Secretary Sean Walsh. He was the person who established Ballybunion’s relationship with Pine Valley and Merion, but even more was extremely welcoming to all visitors.


Who were these visitors? By and large, they were wealthy foreigners, not low income locals who were often on the dole in those pre “Celtic Tiger” days.


So, yes, the European model is very nice if you are a golf architecture junkie and can afford a plane flight across the pond, but it really isn’t so great for locals who aren’t members of a club.


Don’t forget, Alister Mackenzie spoke out against the lack of support for public access clubs in the UK back in the 1920s. I don’t believe that has changed much in the past 100 years.


Jeff Warne:


I don’t want to speak for my local friends in Ballybunion, but my impression is that the days of Sean Walsh are long gone and his current replacement is all about money.


Walsh was truly special, able to get along with the likes of Ernie Ransome at Pine Valley and local members who couldn’t afford the 200 Irish annual dues.

Tim Weiman

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Elie to restrict visitors
« Reply #27 on: Today at 01:29:52 PM »
Don’t forget the “American model” provides public access to more than 70% of the golf courses in the United States.
The conversation gets distorted when the “American model” is assumed to mean private clubs.

Look, I want to be as respectful as possible, but there isn't a way to argue my point here without ruffling some feathers. The American model is obviously not a pure model of private clubs, but it is one of partition and exclusion. Suggesting that the access economy that exists in America isn't culturally problematic might go over just fine in an invite-only forum, where the folks least affected are the only ones who can respond, but it is obviously a major concern for many of the hoi polloi in other forums like reddit.

European model is very nice if you are a golf architecture junkie and can afford a plane flight across the pond, but it really isn’t so great for locals who aren’t members of a club.

Again, the idea that everything must be a sub-$100 green fee for it to be accessible misses the point. I've played the Old Course, and paid a healthy fee, the point is that the only reason I was able to do it at all is because they do allow access. Were one to seek out similar historic clubs in America they'd likely be limited to Downers Grove, and not, say, Dorset, or Shinnecock, or the Country Club, or Chicago... I could go on.

Just setting aside a lottery for 14 or 30 days, or even just 1 day, per year for the general public would cost clubs very little, but would do wonders for golf's status in American culture. No, that wouldn't allow everyone to play, but that's not the point. The point is about just acting neighborly. Ultimately we're all in this together, so maybe be generous when you can... and not just with a big check.

Instead, I have to volunteer at organizations whose sole purpose is to preserve municipal golf courses, because the sport is so hated for it's culture of exclusion, that the public is willing to take out there anger at exactly the wrong courses (note: I reference Coaston because her piece illustrates that hatred can be misplaced, but still be politically potent).

So, you're in the UK. I agree that it's not a perfect system, but there are plenty of public assess courses (I played them as a grad student when facing a nasty exchange rate during my time in Edinburgh). I don't moan about access because I am bitter I can't play some of these places (I'll probably never play Pebble Beach even though I easily could, and I would likely never play Augusta even if offered). I moan about access because I care deeply about golf and golf culture in America, and those wonderfully inexpensive accompanied guest rounds come with serious costs to folks outside those gates.

The purely symbolic act of providing limited access, especially at the historic and prestigious archetypes of golf, completely changes the greater public's view of the game. As someone who has spent a substantial amount if time in both cultures, this is so clearly evident it's hardly worth discussing. Thankfully this is becoming more common in America with golf's social media events (e.g. Fried Egg, Golfers Journal, or Random Golf Club events), and many thanks to the clubs who choose participate in them.
« Last Edit: Today at 01:58:39 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Elie to restrict visitors
« Reply #28 on: Today at 03:14:43 PM »
Just setting aside a lottery for 14 or 30 days, or even just 1 day, per year for the general public would cost clubs very little, but would do wonders for golf's status in American culture. No, that wouldn't allow everyone to play, but that's not the point. The point is about just acting neighborly. Ultimately we're all in this together, so maybe be generous when you can...



The purely symbolic act of providing limited access, especially at the historic and prestigious archetypes of golf, completely changes the greater public's view of the game. As someone who has spent a substantial amount if time in both cultures, this is so clearly evident it's hardly worth discussing.

Matt,

We don’t agree on some things but this is an easy homerun of a post. I think there is a mountain worth of demand to be part of clubs that think this way. And I totally agree, yes, this sort of thinking by many clubs would change the game for the better.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Elie to restrict visitors
« Reply #29 on: Today at 03:31:15 PM »
Don’t forget the “American model” provides public access to more than 70% of the golf courses in the United States.
The conversation gets distorted when the “American model” is assumed to mean private clubs.

Look, I want to be as respectful as possible, but there isn't a way to argue my point here without ruffling some feathers. The American model is obviously not a pure model of private clubs, but it is one of partition and exclusion. Suggesting that the access economy that exists in America isn't culturally problematic might go over just fine in an invite-only forum, where the folks least affected are the only ones who can respond, but it is obviously a major concern for many of the hoi polloi in other forums like reddit.

European model is very nice if you are a golf architecture junkie and can afford a plane flight across the pond, but it really isn’t so great for locals who aren’t members of a club.

Again, the idea that everything must be a sub-$100 green fee for it to be accessible misses the point. I've played the Old Course, and paid a healthy fee, the point is that the only reason I was able to do it at all is because they do allow access. Were one to seek out similar historic clubs in America they'd likely be limited to Downers Grove, and not, say, Dorset, or Shinnecock, or the Country Club, or Chicago... I could go on.

Just setting aside a lottery for 14 or 30 days, or even just 1 day, per year for the general public would cost clubs very little, but would do wonders for golf's status in American culture. No, that wouldn't allow everyone to play, but that's not the point. The point is about just acting neighborly. Ultimately we're all in this together, so maybe be generous when you can... and not just with a big check.

Instead, I have to volunteer at organizations whose sole purpose is to preserve municipal golf courses, because the sport is so hated for it's culture of exclusion, that the public is willing to take out there anger at exactly the wrong courses (note: I reference Coaston because her piece illustrates that hatred can be misplaced, but still be politically potent).

So, you're in the UK. I agree that it's not a perfect system, but there are plenty of public assess courses (I played them as a grad student when facing a nasty exchange rate during my time in Edinburgh). I don't moan about access because I am bitter I can't play some of these places (I'll probably never play Pebble Beach even though I easily could, and I would likely never play Augusta even if offered). I moan about access because I care deeply about golf and golf culture in America, and those wonderfully inexpensive accompanied guest rounds come with serious costs to folks outside those gates.

The purely symbolic act of providing limited access, especially at the historic and prestigious archetypes of golf, completely changes the greater public's view of the game. As someone who has spent a substantial amount if time in both cultures, this is so clearly evident it's hardly worth discussing. Thankfully this is becoming more common in America with golf's social media events (e.g. Fried Egg, Golfers Journal, or Random Golf Club events), and many thanks to the clubs who choose participate in them.

I don’t disagree with you Matt, but a great many clubs do allow outside play for various reasons. It’s just that they don’t blow a trumpet about it.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Elie to restrict visitors
« Reply #30 on: Today at 03:53:10 PM »
I don’t disagree with you Matt, but a great many clubs do allow outside play for various reasons. It’s just that they don’t blow a trumpet about it.

My point is exactly that they ought to. An unadvertised, quite, charity tournament is as much of a welcome mat as a back alley entrance to a speakeasy.

Ben, I appreciate the kind words.
« Last Edit: Today at 03:59:00 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Tim_Weiman

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Re: Elie to restrict visitors
« Reply #31 on: Today at 06:02:53 PM »
Matt,


I don’t worry about the status of golf in American culture, not when nearly 3/4 of all golf courses in the United States are open to the public.


Then, too, I don’t see how every other course could be made available to everyone who might want to play them. The capacity simply doesn’t exist.


About 25 years ago I played golf with Bob Kain, the co-CEO of IMG and one of the most powerful people in golf. Bob, who was a member of Pine Valley, shared a story about calling the club in February to entertain a client in June and was told:


“we are sorry Mr. Kain, we just don’t have a tee time available that day”.


Honestly, I wasn’t totally surprised. Ernie Ransome’s wife once told me: “every time the phone rings it is someone asking Ernie’s help getting on the course”. (Ernie succeeded John Arthur Brown as club President)


The point is that demand is already so high that prominent members can have difficulty getting a tee time. How would anything more than very limited symbolic access work without denying dues paying members the opportunity to play?


I am not opposed to a private club providing some access for non members. Old Barnwell, like other Aiken, SC clubs does and I think it has the full support of members.


But, I think clubs themselves should have the right to decide how much of this, if any, they provide and don’t see a decision not to do so as “hostile”.


Tim
Tim Weiman

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