Elie to restrict visitors

[Ben Sims]

A social media report by the UK Golf Guy indicates that The Golf House Club, Elie will close to visitors from mid-July to mid-August. I went on their site and saw this.

“ The July & August school holiday period is by far our busiest part of the year for members play. Due to capacity issues, play is therefore reserved exclusively for members within this period and no visitors times are available. A ballot is in place for all casual members times within this period.”

A friend said to me recently that he thinks good golf in the UK and Ireland is at or near capacity in many places. This doesn’t match my anecdotal experience over the last two summers, other than Royal Dornoch. Everywhere else we nearly had the place to ourselves and played as fast or slow as we wanted. In late June.


As is their right, Elie is closing to visitors in the high season to preserve their member experience. Yet, they’re so busy they’ll still need a ballot for members in that time. Does any other course in Scotland need a ballot for their *members* in summer?

[Daryl David]

What is a “casual member”?  Perhaps they are not full members and must use a ballot?

[David_Tepper]

I salute Elie for putting their members first and not feeling obliged to "maximize revenue."

[Tony_Muldoon]

[size=78%]“[/size][size=78%][/size] The July & August school holiday period is by far our busiest part of the [size=78%][/color][/size][size=78%][/color][/size]year for members play. Due to capacity issues, play is therefore reserved [size=78%][/color][/size][size=78%][/color][/size]exclusively for members within this period and no visitors times are available...[size=78%][/color][/size][size=78%][/color][/size].”[size=78%][/color][/size]

Royal West Norfolk has had a similar policy for years.  Both Clubs are in popular holiday areas, and with prosperous members.[/size]

[Niall C]

I salute Elie for putting their members first and not feeling obliged to "maximize revenue."

Well said


Niall

[Ben Sims]

I salute Elie for putting their members first and not feeling obliged to "maximize revenue."

David,

I think you raise an interesting point. I like to think the standard UK and Ireland club model as we know it today isn’t simply a revenue proposition. But your post makes me curious. Do you think the collectively known “UK club model” is merely economics? Or is something more virtuous and/or traditional driving it? All of the above?

[Robin_Hiseman]

What is a “casual member”?  Perhaps they are not full members and must use a ballot?

Daryl


I read that as being the non-competition times for member play.

[Daryl David]

What is a “casual member”?  Perhaps they are not full members and must use a ballot?

Daryl


I read that as being the non-competition times for member play.

Thanks. Makes sense.

[David_Tepper]

Ben -

Since I have never been to Elie, know very little about the membership and know nothing at all about the club's finances, I probably should not have posted anything at all.

I am certainly a fan of the GB&I "club model." No doubt revenue from visitor play can have a positive impact on a club's finances. It can help subsidize the members' annual dues and possibly allow clubs to hire extra staff to maintain the course and operate the clubhouse.


That being said, I think many clubs welcome visitors because they have pride in their club and their course and are more than willing to share what they have with visiting golfers.


As we have seen on a couple of other threads here and in the media at large, in may places around the world there is now a push back against the rise in tourism that goes far beyond the world of golf.


My guess is 90% of the visitor play in GB&I happens at less than 10% of the golf clubs. No doubt some of those clubs (and their members) are feeling overwhelmed by visitor play. I see nothing wrong with any club trying to draw a line in some way. Some clubs limit visitor play to certain hours of the day or certain days of the week.


After all, the primary purpose of a club is to serve its members.

DT   
 

[Thomas Dai]

As we have seen on a couple of other threads here and in the media at large, in may places around the world there is now a push back against the rise in tourism that goes far beyond the world of golf.
My guess is 90% of the visitor play in GB&I happens at less than 10% of the golf clubs. No doubt some of those clubs (and their members) are feeling overwhelmed by visitor play. I see nothing wrong with any club trying to draw a line in some way. Some clubs limit visitor play to certain hours of the day or certain days of the week.
After all, the primary purpose of a club is to serve its members.

Nicely summarised.
Atb

[Matt Schoolfield]

After all, the primary purpose of a club is to serve its members.

We ought to be careful in the way we frame simple heuristics.

While I don't disagree with this statement in general, I would suggest that there is at least some element of stewardship and public reciprocity involved. Once a club begin acting hostile to the general public, there is no reason why the general public ought not act hostile to the private club.

I think two months of exclusive use is fair play, but I would worry about cultural issue if Scotland started to trend toward the American model.

[jeffwarne]

I salute Elie for putting their members first and not feeling obliged to "maximize revenue."

This.
IF tee times are so scarce that members need a lottery, it makes perfect sense.
Courses are no better with all the additional revenue, just more crowded with faster greens.
I'm sure at some point they will find a happy medium and eventually offer some visitor play on the odd "in season"(July August) days.


I've often wondered aloud about the gradually over time diminished experience for members at Ballybunion, and now many other clubs.

[John Handley]

Quote from: David_Tepper on Today at 01:17:40 PM[size=0px]After all, the primary purpose of a club is to serve its members.[/size]

[/color]We ought to be careful in the way we frame simple heuristics. [/size]While I don't disagree with this statement in general, I would suggest that there is at least some element of stewardship and public reciprocity involved. Once a club begin acting hostile to the general public, there is no reason why the general public ought not act hostile to the private club.I think two months of exclusive use is fair play, but I would worry about cultural issue if Scotland started to trend toward the American model.


@Matthew

A private club is just that....private.  They don't owe the general public access to anything.  These golf clubs in the UK don't owe me "stewardship" to allow me to play their golf course. I feel privileged to be able to play top private clubs in the UK. And I am fine to abide by their rules.  After all, I am a guest. 

[/color]

[Peter Sayegh]

Happy to hear Elie is "protecting" their members. Good on them.
That said, I assume maximizing their revenue had a hand in the decision.

[Matt Schoolfield]

A private club is just that....private.  They don't owe the general public access to anything.  These golf clubs in the UK don't owe me "stewardship" to allow me to play their golf course.

In a very naive sense, of course this is true. This perspective, however, ignores the social compact as the basis for property.

If limited, precious resources fall into the hands of too few in a society, and those few do not act as good stewards, don’t be surprised if the state steps in to preserve some type of status quo.

[Adam Lawrence]

After all, the primary purpose of a club is to serve its members.

We ought to be careful in the way we frame simple heuristics.

While I don't disagree with this statement in general, I would suggest that there is at least some element of stewardship and public reciprocity involved. Once a club begin acting hostile to the general public, there is no reason why the general public ought not act hostile to the private club.

I think two months of exclusive use is fair play, but I would worry about cultural issue if Scotland started to trend toward the American model.

I don't think there is any real danger of that. Ninety-nine per cent of British golfers (and a fortiori Scottish golfers) would wet their pants if they knew what Americans pay to be members of decent golf clubs. Lower budgets are the main reason for that, but visitor income is an important component.

[John Handley]

"In a very naive sense, of course this is true. This perspective, however, ignores the social compact as the basis for property. [/size]If limited, precious resources fall into the hands of too few in a society, and those few do not act as good stewards, don’t be surprised if the state steps in to preserve some type of status quo."




Well let me know when the state of Georgia steps in to let you play Augusta National.    [/color]

[Matt Schoolfield]

Well let me know when the state of Georgia steps in to let you play Augusta National.

I would offer up the ladies who have recently joined Pine Valley, thanks to the State of New Jersey, as an example of what I'm talking about.

[Sean_A]

Ben -

Since I have never been to Elie, know very little about the membership and know nothing at all about the club's finances, I probably should not have posted anything at all.

I am certainly a fan of the GB&I "club model." No doubt revenue from visitor play can have a positive impact on a club's finances. It can help subsidize the members' annual dues and possibly allow clubs to hire extra staff to maintain the course and operate the clubhouse.


That being said, I think many clubs welcome visitors because they have pride in their club and their course and are more than willing to share what they have with visiting golfers.


As we have seen on a couple of other threads here and in the media at large, in may places around the world there is now a push back against the rise in tourism that goes far beyond the world of golf.


My guess is 90% of the visitor play in GB&I happens at less than 10% of the golf clubs. No doubt some of those clubs (and their members) are feeling overwhelmed by visitor play. I see nothing wrong with any club trying to draw a line in some way. Some clubs limit visitor play to certain hours of the day or certain days of the week.


After all, the primary purpose of a club is to serve its members.

DT

Some GB&I clubs are fuelling and caught in a vicious circle of loving the visitor money so they can improve the  facilities and “the experience” which promotes more visitor play. I suggest the drive to run clubs like businesses has gone much too far in some cases the result is the visitor experience is cheapened….because clubs….and courses are being homogenised. Tourists get the blame, but it is greedy clubs creating the problem. More power to Elie.

Ciao

[Chris Hughes]

Well let me know when the state of Georgia steps in to let you play Augusta National.

I would offer up the ladies who have recently joined Pine Valley, thanks to the State of New Jersey, as an example of what I'm talking about.

Is this example really illustrative of "the state" keeping "precious resources (from) falling into the hands of too few in a society"...??

[Matt Schoolfield]

Is this example really illustrative of "the state" keeping "precious resources (from) falling into the hands of too few in a society"...??

I think this is a fair criticism, but my point remains. The New Jersey Law Against Discrimination grew from inequalities (perceived or otherwise) caused the state to change the rules on what could be done with property. The same was done with the Civil Rights Act, and the ADA. Generally there are carve outs for private clubs, but there needn't be, as is the case with building codes, rules about what pesticides and herbicides may be used, etc.

My point isn't that I think a mob with pitchforks is going eventually going to demand access to Augusta National, but only that the leviathan is the ultimate arbitrator of property, and folks should be careful in their (typically here, inherited) stewardship, because even something as simple as inequality in public accommodation could cause a major changes, as it did in 1964 in the United States.

[Kalen Braley]

My assumption has always been, the UK model is based in the "have your cake and eat it too" financial paradigm.

Let visitors and tourists play at a substantial premium in less used time slots to greatly subsidize club operation costs. In exchange, members get significantly reduced annual dues (compared to US clubs), and still keep the prized Friday thru Sunday time slots.

I figured everything else was secondary to that.

[Ben Sims]

Lots of views here. Seems relatively simple to me. Elie is in the unique position where it makes enough money AND has enough member demand that for ~30 days next summer they can operate as a fully private club.

The member ballot was the most telling piece.

[Mark Pearce]

Elie is a fabulous place and a very unusual club.  During the Scottish school holidays the town/village is full, mostly with families who return every year.  A large proportion are members of the golf clubs (three clubs use the course, The Golf House Club, Elie & Earlsferry Ladies (these two are closely linked and share a clubhouse) and Earlsferry Thistle).  This means that an unusually high proportion of member play takes place during that period.  There are also a number of competitions during that time, many during the week, and most fully subscribed.  That means, during that time, a lot of demand for times from members.  For several years the club has operated a ballot for members for casual (i.e. not in competition) tee times.  If you are flexible, you'll normally get a time but if you are more restricted as to when you can play, it's a problem.  For a while, during that peak season, visitor play has only been possible during one hour in the afternoon.  The rest of the year the club is MUCH quieter and visitors are very welcome.


This change isn't really a big one.  Visitors will still be very welcome at times when there is capacity.  Hopefully everyone would agree that it's reasonable for a club to limit visitor play when it might prevent members getting a game.  I don't think this is any significant change of policy.

[Ira Fishman]

We have had the pleasure of playing Elie twice. One time in late May where the tee sheet was flexible; one time in August where the Club informed us that only a late afternoon time would be available. Both days provided glorious golf and a most welcoming club. It certainly makes sense that they should prioritize member tee times during the high season.


One of our favorite courses and favorite experiences. Members properly cherish it.