News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2024, 10:33:25 AM »
Tim


I think we must have a different understanding of the word "depend". If you were to suggest that the economy would be affected by the lack of US golfers you'd get no argument from me. However if you were to suggest that the whole economy would crash leading to St Andrews turning into a ghost town then I'd respectfully suggest that's nonsense.


If you also excluded other overseas golfers then that would have a bigger impact but again it's not going to sink the town. For sure it would be a big blow to the Links Trust but the Links Trust isn't St Andrews and St Andrews isn't the Links Trust. St Andrews has a number of other strings to its bow of which the University is probably the most important.


Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2024, 10:37:02 AM »
I don't think Jay Rayner was suggesting that St Andrews would cease to exist without American golf tourists.  And
that isn't what I read the word "depends" to mean.  I am well aware that other nationalities visit St Andrews.  But I suspect that, ranked by their contribution to the city's GDP, US visiting golfers are the most significant nationality.  Their contribution is certainly significant.  Particularly when you look at, say, top end accommodation and restaurants.


So your outrage at his words appears....misplaced.


Mark


It's not outrage, just annoyance, and I do get it's just hyperbole used in a restaurant review but its still annoying. And everything else you say above I've already said myself. 


As an aside, does anyone have any facts and numbers about the local economy ?


Niall

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2024, 10:37:46 AM »
Economics is not the Guardian's strong suit. 

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2024, 02:09:24 PM »
At the end of the day, we are talking about a hotel's restaurant. The critic didn't enjoy his meal, fair enough. What I think a lot of people are objecting to here, at least, what I object to here, is the heaping serving of xenophobia that goes along with the review of the food... at a hotel bar... for tourists.

Quote
smells of newly pumped testosterone

I'm fine with tone setting, but Wittgenstein would have a field day with this one.

Quote
On a weekday night the place is filled with a certain kind of middle-aged man, most of them American. They are not just seated at the tables but thronging between them and leaning over the shoulders of friends at other tables to bark with laughter at each other’s jokes and war stories.

Here we have the appetizer of bigotry. A certain kind of foreigner, you know, the kind we all hate. They're loud, not because their cultural norms are different, but because they're just awful. They should stay in their hotel, away from locals like the author... 

Quote
Dinner service here is crowd control only just masquerading as hospitality.

Oh look, legitimate restaurant criticism when you don't read between the lines.

Quote
His appointment here signified culinary ambition and commitment. It just seems that the core clientele didn’t get the memo. What this lot want – and what they get – is cow. An awful lot of grilled cow.

Ah yes, these boorish customers, away from home, offered and extremely high quality version of a dish they might order at home, especially when they are most likely famished from a day on the links. Plebs... they ought to be ordering the tasting menu after 36 holes walking. To quote a certain kind of middle-aged American man: "Am I so out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong."

Quote
Because next to us a table of 10 more pilgrims, presumably here to worship at the temple to golf outside, has just been seated. They also have friends; many, many, friends. They keep pouring into the dining room to have drinks and honk at each other like the table is merely the buffet at some cocktail party. The young, friendly waiting staff deal with this roaming mêlée with grace and efficiency, but Sartre wasn’t wrong when he said that hell is other people. Doubtless, they would all think exactly the same of me if we got acquainted. The issue here, of course, is one of pure economics. St Andrews depends on this ready flow of American golfing tourists and I suppose I should take comfort from the fact that they and their obsessions are, for the most part, corralled up here on the 4th floor. But rarely have I punched the lift button down to ground with such a profound eagerness and glee.

And here we have the main course: some posh prick from the nice side of London takes the train probably flies up to Scotland, and has the audacity to complain about foreigners being in a hotel restaurant. It's not enough that these foreigners are literally keeping to their hotel, they ought not exist.

St Andrews is a college town. It's would be fine with our without these filthy tourists, but it probably wouldn't be able to support these French tire company rated culinary venues. The best parallel would be Stirling University, which does boast one star-rated restaurant... just up the road at Gleneagles.

It just so happens that St Andrews exists on a internationally significant site, and god forbid the internationals, with their different cultural norms, come visit. These people need places to stay, and those places to stay often have restaurants. He didn't love the food and he's in the business of getting clicks, and that's completely fair, but maybe leave the casual arguments for xenelasia to the Daily Mail.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2024, 02:33:40 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2024, 03:36:14 PM »
The critic was insensitive, but do we really expect a restaurant critic to just "do the numbers"? I'm pretty ok letting this one go.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2024, 03:47:41 PM »
I'm not 100% positive what I am about to say is accurate but St. Andrews seems about as close to a recession proof city as there is in Scotland.  Between the University (which will always have students) and being the most famous golf destination on the planet (which is represented by a part of the world population that indexes quite high for wealth), it seems to be a place that could certainly be affected by a down economy, but not knocked out by one.
#nowhitebelt

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2024, 03:54:08 PM »
Jay certainly has a very diverse background,  won/nominated for what appears to be a very long list of distinguished awards, and has dipped his toes in many pools, seemingly finding success in all of them.  He seems to know his audience well and my hat is off to him for being a modern-day Renaissance man. (Link to bio here, https://www.jayrayner.co.uk/about)

Perhaps these days he's bored and just writes whatever the hell he wants because this one is a bit obtuse.  But then again, he did admit this from the OP Brian posted:  Doubtless, they would all think exactly the same of me if we got acquainted.


« Last Edit: September 30, 2024, 03:55:41 PM by Kalen Braley »

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2024, 04:55:44 PM »
There is a time and a place to criticize the boorish, unwashed masses. I know it happens for me in the tragedy-ridden parts of the commons: the bus, the airplane, the DMV. There will always be conflict in the places where people with different cultural norms must share the same space, I don't fault Rayner for that.

I fault him because he reviews a restaurant for tourists and complains about the tourists. It would be like going to a sports bar and complaining about the televisions everywhere, or going to a concert venue and complaining that you can't have a quiet conversation. It's an absolutely bizarre review in exactly this way.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2024, 05:19:41 PM »
Jay certainly has a very diverse background,  won/nominated for what appears to be a very long list of distinguished awards, and has dipped his toes in many pools, seemingly finding success in all of them.  He seems to know his audience well and my hat is off to him for being a modern-day Renaissance man. (Link to bio here, https://www.jayrayner.co.uk/about)

Perhaps these days he's bored and just writes whatever the hell he wants because this one is a bit obtuse.  But then again, he did admit this from the OP Brian posted:  Doubtless, they would all think exactly the same of me if we got acquainted.


Seems like Jay had a score to settle with the double poke in the eye as to both the food and the patrons. We know you guys hate us but is it necessary to be so overt in your disdain? ;)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2024, 05:22:49 PM by Tim Martin »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2024, 05:39:46 PM »
Jay certainly has a very diverse background,  won/nominated for what appears to be a very long list of distinguished awards, and has dipped his toes in many pools, seemingly finding success in all of them.  He seems to know his audience well and my hat is off to him for being a modern-day Renaissance man. (Link to bio here, https://www.jayrayner.co.uk/about)

Perhaps these days he's bored and just writes whatever the hell he wants because this one is a bit obtuse.  But then again, he did admit this from the OP Brian posted:  Doubtless, they would all think exactly the same of me if we got acquainted.


Seems like Jay had a score to settle with the double poke in the eye as to both the food and the patrons. We know you guys hate us but is it necessary to be so overt in your disdain? ;)


I was thinking perhaps he has a personal vendetta with the owner of Rusacks, which would be amusing if so, because it would certainly not have any effect on the cow-eating yanks who frequent the place, as they would certainly not be the intended audience of that article.

Given tabloids were supposedly invented in London, I will not deny they are world class experts in writing such hit pieces;)

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2024, 05:42:46 PM »
Jay certainly has a very diverse background,  won/nominated for what appears to be a very long list of distinguished awards, and has dipped his toes in many pools, seemingly finding success in all of them.  He seems to know his audience well and my hat is off to him for being a modern-day Renaissance man. (Link to bio here, https://www.jayrayner.co.uk/about)

Perhaps these days he's bored and just writes whatever the hell he wants because this one is a bit obtuse.  But then again, he did admit this from the OP Brian posted:  Doubtless, they would all think exactly the same of me if we got acquainted.


Seems like Jay had a score to settle with the double poke in the eye as to both the food and the patrons. We know you guys hate us but is it necessary to be so overt in your disdain? ;)


I was thinking perhaps he has a personal vendetta with the owner of Rusacks, which would be amusing if so, because it would certainly not have any effect on the cow-eating yanks who frequent the place, as they would certainly not be the intended audience of that article.

Given tabloids were supposedly invented in London, I will not deny they are world class experts in writing such hit pieces;)


The Guardian, whether you like its politics or not, is in no sense a 'tabloid'.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2024, 06:58:11 PM »
This guy seems to have a vendetta with golf, golfers, Americans (as an American I get it, but...), just about everything. What a depressing read.  :P


Cheers?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2024, 07:33:05 PM »
Adam,

His Bio says he writes for The Observer, the Sunday sister-paper to The Guardian.

The article makes more sense in that context of being a whimsical Sunday morning giggle with coffee kind of read, but if the intent was to be an actual serious review, that's even more amusing/baffling than first thought.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2024, 11:24:13 AM »

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2024, 12:04:55 PM »
Let’s add a wee bit of fire to the flames - https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/locals-blasts-st-andrews-links-trust-over-golf-course-access/
Over-tourism?

 :)
Atb


As a Links Trust Ticket holder I am obviously heavily biased and in support of more access for ticket holders.  It's a tricky situation for the Links Trust to navigate.  One that I do not envy.
#nowhitebelt

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2024, 12:25:55 PM »
Whether it is Venice, Barcelona, Lake Tahoe, Hawaii, New York City etc. there is a ongoing pushback against "over tourism," AirBnb rentals, etc. It goes far beyond the world of golf.


https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20240925-the-summer-that-tourism-fell-apart

https://www.outsideonline.com/adventure-travel/advice/how-to-be-a-good-tourist/


« Last Edit: October 01, 2024, 12:29:05 PM by David_Tepper »

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2024, 12:29:34 PM »
Mystified. 

I read the artiticle before I saw this thread.  He clearly states he went there  following the Chef because he has form - that's the kind of thing Restaurant Critics do, but not one post has mentioned this? Are we just discussing the heading and subheading?


I've been to restaurants he's reviewed and consequently think his judgement to be pretty sound (almost as good as my own in fact ;D ). In March this year I enjoyed dining with Mr Carlton and Mr and Mrs Bonnar of this parish at "Home" in Dumfries. This was based on an Observer recommendation and it was very fine indeed.  He mainly disses the food but also lets you know what atmosphere you might expect.  I call that doing his job.

Does anyone still fancy eating there? Fine, but its not for me. Move on.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2024, 03:25:33 PM »


I read the artiticle before I saw this thread.  He clearly states he went there  following the Chef because he has form - that's the kind of thing Restaurant Critics do, but not one post has mentioned this? Are we just discussing the heading and subheading?



Yep, I am.


Niall

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2024, 10:43:14 PM »
Aren’t we really all tourists? Even at our own clubs?

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2024, 05:22:13 AM »
Mystified. 

I read the artiticle before I saw this thread.  He clearly states he went there  following the Chef because he has form - that's the kind of thing Restaurant Critics do, but not one post has mentioned this? Are we just discussing the heading and subheading?


I've been to restaurants he's reviewed and consequently think his judgement to be pretty sound (almost as good as my own in fact ;D ). In March this year I enjoyed dining with Mr Carlton and Mr and Mrs Bonnar of this parish at "Home" in Dumfries. This was based on an Observer recommendation and it was very fine indeed.  He mainly disses the food but also lets you know what atmosphere you might expect.  I call that doing his job.

Does anyone still fancy eating there? Fine, but its not for me. Move on.
I don't, either.  But I enjoyed the review.  I wonder what he'd make of the performative fury a handful of the posters on this thread have produced?  Slightly over-salted?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2024, 07:38:19 AM »
Let’s add a wee bit of fire to the flames - https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/locals-blasts-st-andrews-links-trust-over-golf-course-access/
Over-tourism?

 :)
Atb


As a Links Trust Ticket holder I am obviously heavily biased and in support of more access for ticket holders.  It's a tricky situation for the Links Trust to navigate.  One that I do not envy.


Very much agree that it's a tricky situation. Based on my observations, the infrastructure of the local St Andrews community is struggling to keep up with the demands being placed on it by the growth in visitors. Examples include traffic congestion, limited parking, finding staff to fully open restaurants/shops, and the lack of affordable lodging/housing. I don't know how University enrollment is adding to the challenges. For the St Andrews resident, many ask is the growth in visitors worth the trade off in quality of life (includes being able to enjoy the local links)? Some would like to turn back the clock but I don't think that's happening. The partnership between the Links Trust and the local residents needs to remain strong and a priority.






Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2024, 09:34:17 AM »
Let’s add a wee bit of fire to the flames - https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/locals-blasts-st-andrews-links-trust-over-golf-course-access/
Over-tourism?

 :)
Atb


As a Links Trust Ticket holder I am obviously heavily biased and in support of more access for ticket holders.  It's a tricky situation for the Links Trust to navigate.  One that I do not envy.


Very much agree that it's a tricky situation. Based on my observations, the infrastructure of the local St Andrews community is struggling to keep up with the demands being placed on it by the growth in visitors. Examples include traffic congestion, limited parking, finding staff to fully open restaurants/shops, and the lack of affordable lodging/housing. I don't know how University enrollment is adding to the challenges. For the St Andrews resident, many ask is the growth in visitors worth the trade off in quality of life (includes being able to enjoy the local links)? Some would like to turn back the clock but I don't think that's happening. The partnership between the Links Trust and the local residents needs to remain strong and a priority.


There is some interesting data at the end of the Links Trust Annual report about trends in rounds played, tee times occupied, and split of rounds by visitor and ticket holder (including by course). I also found it interesting how much merchandise is sold.

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2024, 06:06:51 PM »
Similarly OT, I was in St. Andrews this summer, and there is a great little restaurant on Golf Place, called Haar.  It is not at all built for foursomes of American golfers, but it's one of the better tasting menus I've ever had, featuring a bunch of local ingredients from Scotland with which I was unfamiliar.  If your wife deigns to go with you to St. Andrews, take her to Haar.


How was the Haggis?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Greg Hohman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2024, 08:26:30 AM »
Similarly OT, I was in St. Andrews this summer, and there is a great little restaurant on Golf Place, called Haar.  It is not at all built for foursomes of American golfers, but it's one of the better tasting menus I've ever had, featuring a bunch of local ingredients from Scotland with which I was unfamiliar.  If your wife deigns to go with you to St. Andrews, take her to Haar.


Similarly OT: Tom, was there soup in your Haar? (In German, the name of the restaurant means hair. :P  Many happy returns.)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2024, 08:31:29 AM by Greg Hohman »
newmonumentsgc.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2024, 08:39:31 AM »
Let’s add a wee bit of fire to the flames - https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/locals-blasts-st-andrews-links-trust-over-golf-course-access/
Over-tourism?

 :)
Atb


As a Links Trust Ticket holder I am obviously heavily biased and in support of more access for ticket holders.  It's a tricky situation for the Links Trust to navigate.  One that I do not envy.


Very much agree that it's a tricky situation. Based on my observations, the infrastructure of the local St Andrews community is struggling to keep up with the demands being placed on it by the growth in visitors. Examples include traffic congestion, limited parking, finding staff to fully open restaurants/shops, and the lack of affordable lodging/housing. I don't know how University enrollment is adding to the challenges. For the St Andrews resident, many ask is the growth in visitors worth the trade off in quality of life (includes being able to enjoy the local links)? Some would like to turn back the clock but I don't think that's happening. The partnership between the Links Trust and the local residents needs to remain strong and a priority.

It’s much the same in North Berwick… in season anyway. The great thing about St Andrews is the students can take up the winter slack.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing