[archie_struthers]

 


Hello all ... heading back to Stonewall after a twenty year hiatus next month for a couple days of golf with a nice group. What's everybody's take on the golf course and facility in general ?

[Ryan Book]

The bunkers could use an update in aesthetic but I'm not prickly enough to deny the setting of the back nine, regardless of whether I (or Edmund Hillary) could walk it. Rarely intellectual, frequently fun.

[mike_malone]

It has an aura.

[archie_struthers]

 


I'm not exactly skinny in my old age so will have to bring my best shoes for the walk . Caddied there and played a little in tournaments in my youth and the Old Course was one of the hardest greens for me to read . Never had problems like I did there reading greens . Interested to see if my skills are still tested to the max LOL

[Matt Frey, PGA]

Stonewall's North Course is one of my favorite courses to play. I could play it every day and not get bored. The greens are wild. Plus, it's fun, strategic and interesting for both the low and high handicappers.

[Joe Bausch]

Stonewall is a fave.

I’ve been fortunate to play both courses multiple times over the last 20 years.

Here are how my eyes and camera saw this 36 hole delight:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/StonewallOld_2023/index.html

And

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/StonewallNorth_October2023/index.html

JWB

[MCirba]

For my taste, a 10 round split between North and Old favors the former 7-3 or even  8-2.


I know that's a minority opinion but I really like the Old and simply think the North is one of the most underrated courses in the US, suffering the fate of being the 2nd course following a successful first.

[Joe Bausch]

For my taste, a 10 round split between North and Old favors the former 7-3 or even  8-2.


I know that's a minority opinion but I really like the Old and simply think the North is one of the most underrated courses in the US, suffering the fate of being the 2nd course following a successful first.

What he said.

[Tommy Williamsen]

For my taste, a 10 round split between North and Old favors the former 7-3 or even  8-2.


I know that's a minority opinion but I really like the Old and simply think the North is one of the most underrated courses in the US, suffering the fate of being the 2nd course following a successful first.

Mike, I would have my split just the opposite. The Old is such a good golf course. It requires good ball striking, well thought out strategy, and good putting. I felt the North had more mediocre holes, although I have only played it once, so I might have missed something.


Why are you so high on the North?

[Mike Nuzzo]

For my taste, a 10 round split between North and Old favors the former 7-3 or even  8-2.


I know that's a minority opinion but I really like the Old and simply think the North is one of the most underrated courses in the US, suffering the fate of being the 2nd course following a successful first.

Mike, I would have my split just the opposite. The Old is such a good golf course. It requires good ball striking, well thought out strategy, and good putting. I felt the North had more mediocre holes, although I have only played it once, so I might have missed something.


Why are you so high on the North?

Having not been on the property....
This could likely be a very clear indicator of the importance of routing as integral to design.
Tom inherited much of the Old routing - the North would be more Tom.
The client could have gotten better at their tasks too - providing a larger parcel.
peace

[Jeffrey Conners]

I would also split the rounds 7-3 in favor of the North; the actual rounds played splits are 6.5-3.5 in favor of the North, which is likely due primarily to the availability of carts at the North.  Paradoxically, I think the routing of the North is more walker-friendly, as the first ten holes at the Old have several long walks back from green to tee (2,5,6,7,10).

[Dan Delaney 🐮]

I’ve been lurking on my phone unable to log in for years.  Archie has pulled me back to the PC this morning… I couldn’t resist. Stonewall is my happy place.  I sincerely hope you enjoy your return!


Interesting to see everyone’s 10 round splits.  I think I have a unique perspective, and the guys I’ve run before it by haven’t killed me for it, so here goes:


Absent extenuating circumstances, it’s not about the walk (North is easier) or cart availability (North only).  It’s not about the greens (North wild, Old more traditional / classic).  It’s about the test, your personality, and what you want for 3 hours of your time.


The Old is a pure championship test - off the tee, into and around the greens, and finally on them.  With rare exceptions of #12 and 16 (maybe six & eight), the short side miss is DEAD.  It’s just so easy for good players to make bogey and walk away scratching their heads, carding one of the highest rounds of their year.  Then looking at their higher handicap buddy playing a usual game and posting a round they are very proud of.  It hits every mark of a course that’s tougher for scratch than a bogey golfer.


The North is pure fun [--W---I---D---E--] off the tee, then challenging into greens where elephants were laid to rest.  A feast for the imagination – using the ground and slopes to work the ball, on approach, around and finally on the greens.  But here, due to the extreme internal contours, the short side miss is PREFERRED on 3, 4, 6, 8, 11, 12, 14, 15, 18.  It plays significantly easier relative to par and GHIN rating (2-4 additional strokes on Old than North are common, depending on tees).


Those who want a stern challenge, are a bit (?) of a masochist, or want to see where your game stacks up – your split will always favor the Old.  If that’s not you, your split will favor the North.


It’s a great problem to have.
 
@Archie_Struthers – Anyone who says they can read the green on 16 Old is a liar.  Have fun!
@Ryan Book – Do you write Yelp reviews? I’m glad I’m not a chef. lol
@Mike Malone – preach.  (BTW RG's evolution is exceptional.  Kudos)
@Tommy Williamsen – one trip around the North needs a boost.  Entire holes change depending on tee/hole locations, much more so here than elsewhere.
@Mike Nuzzo – yes, Tom inherited much of the routing.  Too often it ends there – IMO, he deserves soooo much more credit for breaking the other Tom’s routing around 3-4-5-6 and 9-10-11-18.  Many of the other holes were/are impacted by an unground petroleum pipeline.  And not the least, what lays on the ground today is vastly different than what would have been. A light touch always wins.

[Ryan Book]

The bunkers could use an update in aesthetic but I'm not prickly enough to deny the setting of the back nine, regardless of whether I (or Edmund Hillary) could walk it. Rarely intellectual, frequently fun.

I feel quite fortunate that no one called me out on reviewing the wrong Pennsylvania "Stonewall," despite Archie providing the municipality in question as a hint. I was, of course, speaking of "Olde Stonewall" north of Pittsburgh, which is in "Ellwood," not "Elverson."


Last thing my reputation needs is Tom jumping on here and thinking that I find his design(s) "rarely intellectual, frequently fun."

[Dan Delaney 🐮]

The bunkers could use an update in aesthetic but I'm not prickly enough to deny the setting of the back nine, regardless of whether I (or Edmund Hillary) could walk it. Rarely intellectual, frequently fun.

I feel quite fortunate that no one called me out on reviewing the wrong Pennsylvania "Stonewall," despite Archie providing the municipality in question as a hint. I was, of course, speaking of "Olde Stonewall" north of Pittsburgh, which is in "Ellwood," not "Elverson."


Last thing my reputation needs is Tom jumping on here and thinking that I find his design(s) "rarely intellectual, frequently fun."

Hysterical.  Given this new information, I hereby withdraw my Yelp accusation.

[Tom_Doak]

It's nice to hear the love for Stonewall.  I wish every club I built had that much intrinsic understanding of golf and such good people in charge.


As mentioned, the North course is a better walk because I did that routing from scratch, but also because the proximity of the hill on 13-14-15-16 to the road on the west boundary, combined with the club not owning the house at the west end, meant you were going to have a lot of back and forth, up and down holes.  And even if I could have figured out how to change those, we had to work within the permit approvals for the Fazio layout, so I don't know if we would have been allowed to make the changes.


I do think the North course is underrated.  It's hosted the Men's Mid- Am AND the Women's Mid-Am, to great success, even though there was no intention of building a championship course there.

[mike_malone]

 I must say the Old Course is a better golfing challenge and therefore should get a 6/4 edge.

[Tim_Weiman]

Archie,


Stonewall is one of my favorite places in golf. The second shot to #18 on the Old Course is one of my favorite shots.

[Rory Connaughton]

Archie,


you'll have a great time. Night putting with a few beers under the lights after a fun day of golf is a great way to end the day.

If you start on the Old on day one, alt shot on the north before dinner is mandatory!

In addition to being a great test of golf, the Old is really a study in the managed movement of water.
Open ended question for Tom, would you give detail on some of your choices in that regard?
I am particularly curious about 3, 10, 11 and 16.

[Ed Brzezowski]

I live right off 401 if you need a fill in.

[mike_malone]

Rory,


Water on 10,11,16 at Stonewall Old?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Stonewall just got a new head pro - Megan Leineweber.  She's a friend of mine and couldn't be a nicer person.  She's also a hell of a golfer!  Give her my best if you are at Stonewall.  JC

[Rory Connaughton]

Mike,


  There is no water on those holes, correct.


10 has a deep swale on the left side of the fairway that seems to tie in with a high point between 10 and 18. I have always assumed that that feature is intended to guide water across ten to the low point to the east so that the entire fairway does not get sheet flow from the higher elevations to the west and south of the hole.


As I understand it, when the clubhouse was a milk shed, water flowed directly toward it from the west and south and heavy rain events caused water to run towards and through the shed (which I suspect was a design feature for cleaning it out . . perhaps).


Now, the shaping of 11 appears to move water coming off those slopes away from the clubhouse.


With 16, though Tom will correct this, perhaps, it seems to help move water east that might otherwise move towards the clubhouse.


Perhaps I am over analyzing but I appreciate these elements even if I am dead wrong 

[Mike_Trenham]

Rory:


Ted McKenzie told me the little structure on left side of 16 was part of a cistern the farmers used to clean out the barn. They would open the doors on the north and south side and the water collected would be released down the hill and rush through the barn.


Now the waste from the clubhouse is pumped up the hill to a septic system between 9/10/18.

[Mike_Trenham]

Stonewall is the best managed club in the Golf Association of Philadelphia. 


There is a lot of stability sinces its founding, the club knows what it is and what it is not.  Changes do come about but they generally are deliberate and well executed.

[Chris Hughes]

Stonewall is the best managed club in the Golf Association of Philadelphia. 

There is a lot of stability sinces its founding, the club knows what it is and what it is not. 

Seems to reflect the same sentiment Tom Doak expressed earlier in this thread.

Reminds me of a story a friend of mine related about a friend of his joining Seminole:


...a friend of mine joined Seminole 30 years ago.In the first few days that he was a member, an older member approached him and said:"I understand that you're a new member.  Why did you join Seminole ?"  My friend went on to list the reasons.The old member then replied:"So you joined Seminole because you loved everything about it, just the way it is.  Please make sure that you preserve "The" Seminole that you wanted to join and please don't make any attempts to change it."  Too often today, new members want to change the club just a few years into their membership.

It sure appears Stonewall, like Seminole, has successfully maintained the "golf club" culture that has made the place a success.

Golf clubs everywhere should take note....

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