Overrated Courses

[Ben Stephens]

Delamere Forest is the one on Sean’s list that surprised me - I have it as underrated (only sneaking in to the occasional GB&I Top-100)…

Don’t give me “the greens aren’t interesting”. There may not be a lot of internal contour but they’re plenty interesting and the greens are sited very well (I.e. using natural features in the routing).

I'm not taking sides re Delamere, but the one thing that has always astounded me is that Fowler built it, with its rather flat greens, at almost exactly the same time as he did Beau Desert, which has greens that are quite opposite!

Could there be any chance that the greens have been 'neutered' at DF since Fowler's time?

Possibly, but (a) I've never heard any such suggestion and (b) when at any time since Delamere was built has there been enough money in British golf to justify a club like Delamere, which does well enough but I'm sure isn't exactly rich rebuilding all its greens?

You never know at times greenkeepers or clubs have 'flattened' some part of the greens to allow for more playable pin positions or nature has moved the ground over time. Didn't M+E work at Delamere recently if so would be interested to see their historical research of the course.

[Matt Schoolfield]

I'm really enjoying both of these threads. This one makes me think about the strong difference between consensus opinions vs niche preferences. I've written about how I wish golf course reviews were more like film reviews. Even in the most universally acclaimed films, there are plenty of reviewers that don't love them. So, if we're using the golf course rankings/ratings to help us find places we ought to play, it might be better to find a critic that aligns with our own preferences, rather than chasing down consensus opinions that we will inevitable disappoint us.

In my region, I think TPC Harding Park is overrated.

[Sean_A]

I'm really enjoying both of these threads. This one makes me think about the strong difference between consensus opinions vs niche preferences. I've written about how I wish golf course reviews were more like film reviews. Even in the most universally acclaimed films, there are plenty of reviewers that don't love them. So, if we're using the golf course rankings/ratings to help us find places we ought to play, it might be better to find a critic that aligns with our own preferences, rather than chasing down consensus opinions that we will inevitable disappoint us.

In my region, I think TPC Harding Park is overrated.

Sure, I think many people rely on individual opinion over consensus rankings to help figure out where to play.

Ciao

[Carl Nichols]

I'm in absolute shock that they are getting $475 for Firestone South.

Not worth it and I love the place

Isn't Firestone private, so that's something like an unaccompanied guest rate? 

[Kalen Braley]

I think the fundamental problem GCA.com has with these kinds of threads is context and/or easily getting lost in the weeds.

For example, Sand Hills could be overrated where it sits at #11 on the Golf Mag list, but if it were #50, the howls would be far louder that its underrated.  But the actual "truth" is, whether its 11 or 50, its still among the elite in either spot.

[Tim Gallant]

Turnberry

Recently played Turnberry so I can say that I have played the Mackenzie Ross and Martin Ebert versions.


What makes you say it is overrated?

Hi Ben!


I played both versions as well (Albeit, only the one time each). I didn't find any of the greens really worthy of study, and didn't feel there were any holes that you could argue might make an all UK eclectic (maybe 10 or 15 if you were clutching at straws). Strategically, it doesn't feel quite on the same level as a Muirfield or the variety of a Royal St Georges, which is kind of the ratings that it's playing within, and I don't love the routing and how it only tackles the coastline in one direction and all at once. Views are great; it's a very good links course, but I would happily take Brancaster, Cruden Bay, Machrihanish, or Rye over Turnberry - all of which are rated much lower.


Curious on your thoughts of the course.

[Ira Fishman]

I'm really enjoying both of these threads. This one makes me think about the strong difference between consensus opinions vs niche preferences. I've written about how I wish golf course reviews were more like film reviews. Even in the most universally acclaimed films, there are plenty of reviewers that don't love them. So, if we're using the golf course rankings/ratings to help us find places we ought to play, it might be better to find a critic that aligns with our own preferences, rather than chasing down consensus opinions that we will inevitable disappoint us.

In my region, I think TPC Harding Park is overrated.

Sure, I think many people rely on individual opinion over consensus rankings to help figure out where to play.

Ciao

Yep. There are several people here whose judgment I trust more than the magazine rankings. Sean being one of them. I never would have had the pleasure of playing a bunch of UK&I courses if I had not paid attention to several of the posters here.

[Adam Lawrence]

Delamere Forest is the one on Sean’s list that surprised me - I have it as underrated (only sneaking in to the occasional GB&I Top-100)…

Don’t give me “the greens aren’t interesting”. There may not be a lot of internal contour but they’re plenty interesting and the greens are sited very well (I.e. using natural features in the routing).

I'm not taking sides re Delamere, but the one thing that has always astounded me is that Fowler built it, with its rather flat greens, at almost exactly the same time as he did Beau Desert, which has greens that are quite opposite!

Could there be any chance that the greens have been 'neutered' at DF since Fowler's time?

Possibly, but (a) I've never heard any such suggestion and (b) when at any time since Delamere was built has there been enough money in British golf to justify a club like Delamere, which does well enough but I'm sure isn't exactly rich rebuilding all its greens?

You never know at times greenkeepers or clubs have 'flattened' some part of the greens to allow for more playable pin positions or nature has moved the ground over time. Didn't M+E work at Delamere recently if so would be interested to see their historical research of the course.

‘Some part’ yes but a rebuild of all the greens? Inconceivable

[Matthew Lloyd]

I want to correct myself re Firestone South. I must have spoken to an operative that gave me incorrect info. The rate with the required overnight stay is closer to $275. That’s still very expensive - but nowhere near the other amount.


Hope this makes people feel better. It certainly makes me feel better as somebody who does want to get back there at some point as an Ohio native.

[Mike Worth]

I think the fundamental problem GCA.com has with these kinds of threads is context and/or easily getting lost in the weeds.

For example, Sand Hills could be overrated where it sits at #11 on the Golf Mag list, but if it were #50, the howls would be far louder that its underrated.  But the actual "truth" is, whether its 11 or 50, its still among the elite in either spot.

this is an excellent point. I’ve wanted to comment for sometime, but couldn’t actually think of a course I felt was overrated. 


And then it finally came to me:


Lofoten.

[Kevin Stark]

I'll say it -- Pebble Beach. A lot of forgettable holes that you wouldn't remember at all if they weren't located in the most spectacular setting on the planet.

[Rob Marshall]

I'll say it -- Pebble Beach. A lot of forgettable holes that you wouldn't remember at all if they weren't located in the most spectacular setting on the planet.

Kevin, can’t argue with your opinion but I will tell you I can still remember every club I hit on every shot when I played Pebble well over 10 years ago. Couldn’t do the same for any other round of golf I’ve played.

[DFarron]

I'll say it -- Pebble Beach. A lot of forgettable holes that you wouldn't remember at all if they weren't located in the most spectacular setting on the planet.

Kevin, can’t argue with your opinion but I will tell you I can still remember every club I hit on every shot when I played Pebble well over 10 years ago. Couldn’t do the same for any other round of golf I’ve played.

I can’t wait until I can get back there to play even at $675 or whatever it is. Haven’t played there in about 25 years but love the place so much I spent my honeymoon there !

[Kevin Stark]

I'll say it -- Pebble Beach. A lot of forgettable holes that you wouldn't remember at all if they weren't located in the most spectacular setting on the planet.

Kevin, can’t argue with your opinion but I will tell you I can still remember every club I hit on every shot when I played Pebble well over 10 years ago. Couldn’t do the same for any other round of golf I’ve played.

I should clarify...the majority of the holes are all-world. The others are uninspired IMO beyond their setting. 1, 2, 13, 15, and 16 are meh to me. A top 10 course in the world shouldn't have that much meh.

[Richard Fisher]

Always fun to see this sort of disagreement about what I guess are generally numbers 75 - 125 in most GB rankings... I think I like both Broadstone and Delamere more than Sean does, but the one inland course which in rating terms continues to puzzle me a bit is Hankley Common. A lovely place for a game, but one of the top half-dozen venues inland in the UK? Really? Better and more interesting than Alwoodley or Hollinwell?
My really heretical rating thoughts on GCA are, I guess, Dornoch, but I have only ever played two rounds there so doubtless have much to learn and to some extent Pennard, where I have played a bit more and where I had the marmite view thereof within Wales confirmed again only the other day, talking to some participants in the recent Welsh Open Seniors champs there.
Underrated nowadays, emphatically (although not on this site) remains RND Westward Ho! with as Ran says about the greatest variety of hazard of any golf course in the UK.

[Adam Lawrence]

Always fun to see this sort of disagreement about what I guess are generally numbers 75 - 125 in most GB rankings... I think I like both Broadstone and Delamere more than Sean does, but the one inland course which in rating terms continues to puzzle me a bit is Hankley Common. A lovely place for a game, but one of the top half-dozen venues inland in the UK? Really? Better and more interesting than Alwoodley or Hollinwell?

As we discussed about Hankley recently, I don't think it is particularly puzzling why some people rate it so highly. They are very clearly rating beauty over architecture. Hankley when the heather is in bloom is a pretty close approximation of Paradise. But I hope the golf is better in heaven 

[Niall C]

Delamere Forest is the one on Sean’s list that surprised me - I have it as underrated (only sneaking in to the occasional GB&I Top-100)…

Don’t give me “the greens aren’t interesting”. There may not be a lot of internal contour but they’re plenty interesting and the greens are sited very well (I.e. using natural features in the routing).

I'm not taking sides re Delamere, but the one thing that has always astounded me is that Fowler built it, with its rather flat greens, at almost exactly the same time as he did Beau Desert, which has greens that are quite opposite!

Could there be any chance that the greens have been 'neutered' at DF since Fowler's time?

Possibly, but (a) I've never heard any such suggestion and (b) when at any time since Delamere was built has there been enough money in British golf to justify a club like Delamere, which does well enough but I'm sure isn't exactly rich rebuilding all its greens?

You never know at times greenkeepers or clubs have 'flattened' some part of the greens to allow for more playable pin positions or nature has moved the ground over time. Didn't M+E work at Delamere recently if so would be interested to see their historical research of the course.

‘Some part’ yes but a rebuild of all the greens? Inconceivable

Adam,


I wouldn't say it is inconceivable. If at some point they were having problems with the greens, it's possible they just rebuilt them over several years using the greenkeeping team, which possibly would explain why they don't have much contour.


Niall

[Adam G]

Kittansett. The par 3s are amazing and the location on the water is beautiful, but with a few notable exceptions the other 14 holes are good but not special.

[Craig Disher]

Kittansett. The par 3s are amazing and the location on the water is beautiful, but with a few notable exceptions the other 14 holes are good but not special.

I think the same can be said of Maidstone. The holes in the dunes are terrific but getting there isn't that memorable.

[Ben Stephens]

Turnberry

Recently played Turnberry so I can say that I have played the Mackenzie Ross and Martin Ebert versions.


What makes you say it is overrated?

Hi Ben!


I played both versions as well (Albeit, only the one time each). I didn't find any of the greens really worthy of study, and didn't feel there were any holes that you could argue might make an all UK eclectic (maybe 10 or 15 if you were clutching at straws). Strategically, it doesn't feel quite on the same level as a Muirfield or the variety of a Royal St Georges, which is kind of the ratings that it's playing within, and I don't love the routing and how it only tackles the coastline in one direction and all at once. Views are great; it's a very good links course, but I would happily take Brancaster, Cruden Bay, Machrihanish, or Rye over Turnberry - all of which are rated much lower.


Curious on your thoughts of the course.

As an overall golf facility it is tremendous what they have on offer. The 7th green on Ailsa is a great green however sadly that is going as Martin Ebert is relocating the green to the coast and straightening up hole 8.


Regarding the Ailsa - the new first green is a replica of the original, 2 and 3 are as they are, holes 4 and 5 the greens have been moved further forward. 6 has been shortened 7 is to change. 8 is a great hole. 9 could have been better maybe a short par 4 rather than an ok par 3.


10 is an all world hole. 11 is stunning but as a hole not too sure. 12 and 13 is as before, 14 has been changed. 15 and 16 is more or less before. 17 has been shortened to allow for a longer and straighter 18th.


Your comment about the holes being in a similar direction on the coast - maybe it could be better if 10 to 14 were in reverse with 14 being 10, 13 being 11, 12 being 12 in reverse and 11 being 13 and 14 as a par 5 in reverse of 10 - that could work and still be stunning holes.


The course was green!!! - it is known that the Trumps are a not a fan of brown courses which is also visible at Aberdeen and Doonbeg which means it loses a bit of its firm and fast surfaces. The greens are however really nice to putt on.


Cheers
Ben

[Tim Gallant]

Turnberry

Recently played Turnberry so I can say that I have played the Mackenzie Ross and Martin Ebert versions.


What makes you say it is overrated?

Hi Ben!


I played both versions as well (Albeit, only the one time each). I didn't find any of the greens really worthy of study, and didn't feel there were any holes that you could argue might make an all UK eclectic (maybe 10 or 15 if you were clutching at straws). Strategically, it doesn't feel quite on the same level as a Muirfield or the variety of a Royal St Georges, which is kind of the ratings that it's playing within, and I don't love the routing and how it only tackles the coastline in one direction and all at once. Views are great; it's a very good links course, but I would happily take Brancaster, Cruden Bay, Machrihanish, or Rye over Turnberry - all of which are rated much lower.


Curious on your thoughts of the course.

As an overall golf facility it is tremendous what they have on offer. The 7th green on Ailsa is a great green however sadly that is going as Martin Ebert is relocating the green to the coast and straightening up hole 8.


Regarding the Ailsa - the new first green is a replica of the original, 2 and 3 are as they are, holes 4 and 5 the greens have been moved further forward. 6 has been shortened 7 is to change. 8 is a great hole. 9 could have been better maybe a short par 4 rather than an ok par 3.


10 is an all world hole. 11 is stunning but as a hole not too sure. 12 and 13 is as before, 14 has been changed. 15 and 16 is more or less before. 17 has been shortened to allow for a longer and straighter 18th.


Your comment about the holes being in a similar direction on the coast - maybe it could be better if 10 to 14 were in reverse with 14 being 10, 13 being 11, 12 being 12 in reverse and 11 being 13 and 14 as a par 5 in reverse of 10 - that could work and still be stunning holes.


The course was green!!! - it is known that the Trumps are a not a fan of brown courses which is also visible at Aberdeen and Doonbeg which means it loses a bit of its firm and fast surfaces. The greens are however really nice to putt on.


Cheers
Ben

Thanks Ben - so do you think the course at 15-25 in the world is overrated, underrated, or appropriately rated?

[Mike Wagner]

Turnberry

Recently played Turnberry so I can say that I have played the Mackenzie Ross and Martin Ebert versions.


What makes you say it is overrated?

Hi Ben!


I played both versions as well (Albeit, only the one time each). I didn't find any of the greens really worthy of study, and didn't feel there were any holes that you could argue might make an all UK eclectic (maybe 10 or 15 if you were clutching at straws). Strategically, it doesn't feel quite on the same level as a Muirfield or the variety of a Royal St Georges, which is kind of the ratings that it's playing within, and I don't love the routing and how it only tackles the coastline in one direction and all at once. Views are great; it's a very good links course, but I would happily take Brancaster, Cruden Bay, Machrihanish, or Rye over Turnberry - all of which are rated much lower.


Curious on your thoughts of the course.

As an overall golf facility it is tremendous what they have on offer. The 7th green on Ailsa is a great green however sadly that is going as Martin Ebert is relocating the green to the coast and straightening up hole 8.


Regarding the Ailsa - the new first green is a replica of the original, 2 and 3 are as they are, holes 4 and 5 the greens have been moved further forward. 6 has been shortened 7 is to change. 8 is a great hole. 9 could have been better maybe a short par 4 rather than an ok par 3.


10 is an all world hole. 11 is stunning but as a hole not too sure. 12 and 13 is as before, 14 has been changed. 15 and 16 is more or less before. 17 has been shortened to allow for a longer and straighter 18th.


Your comment about the holes being in a similar direction on the coast - maybe it could be better if 10 to 14 were in reverse with 14 being 10, 13 being 11, 12 being 12 in reverse and 11 being 13 and 14 as a par 5 in reverse of 10 - that could work and still be stunning holes.


The course was green!!! - it is known that the Trumps are a not a fan of brown courses which is also visible at Aberdeen and Doonbeg which means it loses a bit of its firm and fast surfaces. The greens are however really nice to putt on.


Cheers
Ben

Thanks Ben - so do you think the course at 15-25 in the world is overrated, underrated, or appropriately rated?

Interesting ... played Turnberry last week and all 12 of us were discussing if it was one of the best in the world.


Aberdeen (NOT Royal), on the other hand ...and Castle Stuart (Cabot) made the overrated list by a long shot.

[Tim Gallant]

Turnberry

Recently played Turnberry so I can say that I have played the Mackenzie Ross and Martin Ebert versions.


What makes you say it is overrated?

Hi Ben!


I played both versions as well (Albeit, only the one time each). I didn't find any of the greens really worthy of study, and didn't feel there were any holes that you could argue might make an all UK eclectic (maybe 10 or 15 if you were clutching at straws). Strategically, it doesn't feel quite on the same level as a Muirfield or the variety of a Royal St Georges, which is kind of the ratings that it's playing within, and I don't love the routing and how it only tackles the coastline in one direction and all at once. Views are great; it's a very good links course, but I would happily take Brancaster, Cruden Bay, Machrihanish, or Rye over Turnberry - all of which are rated much lower.


Curious on your thoughts of the course.

As an overall golf facility it is tremendous what they have on offer. The 7th green on Ailsa is a great green however sadly that is going as Martin Ebert is relocating the green to the coast and straightening up hole 8.


Regarding the Ailsa - the new first green is a replica of the original, 2 and 3 are as they are, holes 4 and 5 the greens have been moved further forward. 6 has been shortened 7 is to change. 8 is a great hole. 9 could have been better maybe a short par 4 rather than an ok par 3.


10 is an all world hole. 11 is stunning but as a hole not too sure. 12 and 13 is as before, 14 has been changed. 15 and 16 is more or less before. 17 has been shortened to allow for a longer and straighter 18th.


Your comment about the holes being in a similar direction on the coast - maybe it could be better if 10 to 14 were in reverse with 14 being 10, 13 being 11, 12 being 12 in reverse and 11 being 13 and 14 as a par 5 in reverse of 10 - that could work and still be stunning holes.


The course was green!!! - it is known that the Trumps are a not a fan of brown courses which is also visible at Aberdeen and Doonbeg which means it loses a bit of its firm and fast surfaces. The greens are however really nice to putt on.


Cheers
Ben

Thanks Ben - so do you think the course at 15-25 in the world is overrated, underrated, or appropriately rated?

Interesting ... played Turnberry last week and all 12 of us were discussing if it was one of the best in the world.


Aberdeen (NOT Royal), on the other hand ...and Castle Stuart (Cabot) made the overrated list by a long shot.

Mike,


Great that you were able to see those courses! What was the consensus of the group? Were there certain features/holes that stuck out?


What else were you able to see? Hope you had a good trip!

[Craig Sweet]

Ratings are overrated...

[Ben Stephens]

Turnberry

Recently played Turnberry so I can say that I have played the Mackenzie Ross and Martin Ebert versions.


What makes you say it is overrated?

Hi Ben!


I played both versions as well (Albeit, only the one time each). I didn't find any of the greens really worthy of study, and didn't feel there were any holes that you could argue might make an all UK eclectic (maybe 10 or 15 if you were clutching at straws). Strategically, it doesn't feel quite on the same level as a Muirfield or the variety of a Royal St Georges, which is kind of the ratings that it's playing within, and I don't love the routing and how it only tackles the coastline in one direction and all at once. Views are great; it's a very good links course, but I would happily take Brancaster, Cruden Bay, Machrihanish, or Rye over Turnberry - all of which are rated much lower.


Curious on your thoughts of the course.

As an overall golf facility it is tremendous what they have on offer. The 7th green on Ailsa is a great green however sadly that is going as Martin Ebert is relocating the green to the coast and straightening up hole 8.


Regarding the Ailsa - the new first green is a replica of the original, 2 and 3 are as they are, holes 4 and 5 the greens have been moved further forward. 6 has been shortened 7 is to change. 8 is a great hole. 9 could have been better maybe a short par 4 rather than an ok par 3.


10 is an all world hole. 11 is stunning but as a hole not too sure. 12 and 13 is as before, 14 has been changed. 15 and 16 is more or less before. 17 has been shortened to allow for a longer and straighter 18th.


Your comment about the holes being in a similar direction on the coast - maybe it could be better if 10 to 14 were in reverse with 14 being 10, 13 being 11, 12 being 12 in reverse and 11 being 13 and 14 as a par 5 in reverse of 10 - that could work and still be stunning holes.


The course was green!!! - it is known that the Trumps are a not a fan of brown courses which is also visible at Aberdeen and Doonbeg which means it loses a bit of its firm and fast surfaces. The greens are however really nice to putt on.


Cheers
Ben

Thanks Ben - so do you think the course at 15-25 in the world is overrated, underrated, or appropriately rated?

Neither underrated or overrated its a solid championship golf course with amazing views - with par 3s too close together for my liking and lacks a risk and reward short par 4 or par 5.


The day I played it you couldn’t ask for better weather or playing partner - David Nelson a golf course contractor who used to be on GCA who beat me on the last hole in a competitive match