[Rob Marshall]

My home course has two fairways that tilt the opposite direction of the dogleg. It seems to me that this is fairly rare. I can only think of one other in my town filled with some great golf courses.


Is this a fairly rare design future or is more common than I think. Any thoughts?

[John Blain]

My home course has two fairways that tilt the opposite direction of the dogleg. It seems to me that this is fairly rare. I can only think of one other in my town filled with some great golf courses.


Is this a fairly rare design future or is more common than I think. Any thoughts?

The Olympic Club has a number of "reverse camber" holes like you described. I'm not a big fan personally but I am sure many will disagree.

[Tom_Doak]

Golfers' natural tendency on a side slope is to aim to the high side of the line to the flag, since they know the ball will bounce back toward it.  A reverse camber is when you have to play to the low side where the ball will bounce further away from the direct line.  So it only really works when there is a major obstacle [trees or boundary] preventing you from taking a higher line.

[Michael Felton]

The 5th hole at RSG has a fairway that slopes away from the dogleg. It's a little bit of an odd case since the left side and right side are both fairly flat, but in the middle is a slope to the right. No view of the green from the right side. But if you try to get a good view of the flag on the left side, you bring those bunkers into play and those are not a good spot at all. I think this is a great risk/reward hole and that slope is what makes it work. The continuous adverse camber slope where the ball just wanders away from the hole when it lands and rolls I'm not so much of a fan of. But it does really give a benefit to someone who can move the ball into the slope/dogleg. A dogleg left with a slope to the right and a fade is a tough mix. Big benefit to someone who can draw it at that point (and vice versa).

[Rob Marshall]

Golfers' natural tendency on a side slope is to aim to the high side of the line to the flag, since they know the ball will bounce back toward it.  A reverse camber is when you have to play to the low side where the ball will bounce further away from the direct line.  So it only really works when there is a major obstacle [trees or boundary] preventing you from taking a higher line.

In my case there are trees to the high side on both holes. So based on your last sentence, I take it that it is something that you would design into a hole.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Overbrook outside Philadelphia presents this feature on a couple of holes. Not a fan.

[Charlie Goerges]

I don't think it's rare, there were a couple of them on my home course as a kid. The issue with them is that they have the potential to "double-whammy" the player depending on the shot shape. I'm certain I've heard players bitching about hitting the middle of the fairway and then bounding into the rough or a bunker or OB on the outside, because they couldn't hit the required shot shape. That said, I like having them once or twice a round, they provide opportunity to think your way around the course. When you can't hit the required shot shape, you can usually lay back a little and still have the ability to advance toward the target.

[Sean_A]

Golfers' natural tendency on a side slope is to aim to the high side of the line to the flag, since they know the ball will bounce back toward it.  A reverse camber is when you have to play to the low side where the ball will bounce further away from the direct line.  So it only really works when there is a major obstacle [trees or boundary] preventing you from taking a higher line.

Not sure I understand this as the only way to to view reverse doglegs. My take on reverse cambers is that the guy who can 1) ride the high side successfully or 2) the guy who can shape his shot into the slope are rewarded. The penalty for being caught on the high side is having a terrible angle of approach…basically hitting downhill to a non-receptive green (for whatever reason…usually a bunker blocking the high side). In effect the penalty is delayed rather than instant.

Ciao

[Rob Marshall]

I don't think it's rare, there were a couple of them on my home course as a kid. The issue with them is that they have the potential to "double-whammy" the player depending on the shot shape. I'm certain I've heard players bitching about hitting the middle of the fairway and then bounding into the rough or a bunker or OB on the outside, because they couldn't hit the required shot shape. That said, I like having them once or twice a round, they provide opportunity to think your way around the course. When you can't hit the required shot shape, you can usually lay back a little and still have the ability to advance toward the target.

That goes against the current wisdom of playing one shot shape off the tee. However I agree, the play is to work the ball into the slope if you can which will also be with the dogleg.

[Tim Gavrich]

Reverse-camber fairways have possibly never been more relevant as a feature that tests a golfer's abilities. Since the golf ball doesn't spin much anymore, it takes skill to work a tee shot against the slope to deaden the ball's landing and keep it in the fairway. It exposes a weakness in a golfer who only knows how to work the ball in one direction off a tee. The 5th at East Lake is a good example; since a lot of pros don't care to draw the ball off the tee anymore, the fairway's left-to-right tilt probably got some of them a little bit huffy. That's a good thing IMO.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Elegantly designed reverse camber holes are beautiful things.


If the slope is quite steep, the dogleg needs to be gentle. A more subtle slope can mean a steeper dogleg.


There are a multitude of good examples. 3 at Woking is a famous one. Two closer to my heart are 5 at Carlow and 1 at Strandhill. When I did the new 9 at Carne, I got rid of one of these holes that had originally been routed by Jim Engh, exactly because it was not going to work with the steepness of the dogleg in any wind.

[Thomas Dai]

Would it be fair to say they are essentially a means of getting from A to B over a less than ideal section of terrain with hopefully an outcome isn’t too severe or unsatisfactory? Perhaps with an occasional one over mild terrain being acceptable from a variety perspective?
Atb

[Charlie Goerges]

I don't think it's rare, there were a couple of them on my home course as a kid. The issue with them is that they have the potential to "double-whammy" the player depending on the shot shape. I'm certain I've heard players bitching about hitting the middle of the fairway and then bounding into the rough or a bunker or OB on the outside, because they couldn't hit the required shot shape. That said, I like having them once or twice a round, they provide opportunity to think your way around the course. When you can't hit the required shot shape, you can usually lay back a little and still have the ability to advance toward the target.

That goes against the current wisdom of playing one shot shape off the tee. However I agree, the play is to work the ball into the slope if you can which will also be with the dogleg.

It does go against it. I can't move the ball both ways any more either. So my strategy when the hole sets up badly for me is to club down to something that stops faster... like a three wood or a hybrid and just keep it in play. It may amount to an automatic bogey (or worse) for me, but it's better than being in jail or OB.

[Jim Roth]

the 6th hole at Woodway Country Club (Willie Park Jnr- Darien Ct) is an excellent example of reverse camber dogleg (with the added challenge of an uphill approach)    with the recent tree removal the golfer is afforded many options off the tee that depending on the club selection and shot direction can result in approach shots anywhere from 120yrds to 200yds+ (both in fairway)

The land movement on the is hole is dramatic and quirky (in a great way)

[Matt_Cohn]

I think it’s a mental thing. On a hole that doglegs with the slope, a tee shot shaped properly is generally rewarded with extra roll (fun), while a tee shot curving in the other direction loses some roll but is otherwise fine (a clear disadvantage, but not bothersome).


On a hole that doglegs against the slope, a properly-shaped shot stops more quickly (helpful, but not very satisfying) while one shaped the other way gets kicked into a worse position (deserved, but annoying).


Holes that dogleg against the slope are great tests, but the results of various shots are generally less enjoyable.

[Ira Fishman]

Elegantly designed reverse camber holes are beautiful things.


If the slope is quite steep, the dogleg needs to be gentle. A more subtle slope can mean a steeper dogleg.


There are a multitude of good examples. 3 at Woking is a famous one. Two closer to my heart are 5 at Carlow and 1 at Strandhill. When I did the new 9 at Carne, I got rid of one of these holes that had originally been routed by Jim Engh, exactly because it was not going to work with the steepness of the dogleg in any wind.

As I have posted before, number 3 at Woking is a truly terrific hole. 4 (properly so) and 14 (who doesn’t want to step off a green for a drink?) overshadow it, but it really is a superbly designed hole.

[Gary Kurth]

Elegantly designed reverse camber holes are beautiful things.


If the slope is quite steep, the dogleg needs to be gentle. A more subtle slope can mean a steeper dogleg.

Curious; what percent of slope do you define as subtle and what slope does it become steep to quite steep?


Thanks.

[Tom_Doak]

 I can't move the ball both ways any more either. So my strategy when the hole sets up badly for me is to club down to something that stops faster... like a three wood or a hybrid and just keep it in play. It may amount to an automatic bogey (or worse) for me, but it's better than being in jail or OB.

This is why I like the concept of reverse camber, even though I don't find myself using it often.  It's never going to be popular because of the "double penalty" mentioned earlier if the fairway tilts opposite to your normal shot pattern, but there are multiple ways to combat this as a player, you just may find it wise to get out of your normal comfort zone with the driver, which is a good thing.


Now that I think about it, the 13th at High Pointe is reverse camber, and it's always been my favorite hole there.

[Charlie Goerges]

 I can't move the ball both ways any more either. So my strategy when the hole sets up badly for me is to club down to something that stops faster... like a three wood or a hybrid and just keep it in play. It may amount to an automatic bogey (or worse) for me, but it's better than being in jail or OB.

This is why I like the concept of reverse camber, even though I don't find myself using it often.  It's never going to be popular because of the "double penalty" mentioned earlier if the fairway tilts opposite to your normal shot pattern, but there are multiple ways to combat this as a player, you just may find it wise to get out of your normal comfort zone with the driver, which is a good thing.


Now that I think about it, the 13th at High Pointe is reverse camber, and it's always been my favorite hole there.

Exactly, it’s a bit of extra spice, and yeah, a bit out of my comfort zone, but in a good way.

[Ben Sims]

Even the coolest things aren’t cool in excess. My home club has no less than six of these things and at some point, it’s just hard for hard’s sake. I understand the utility reverse camber doglegs provide when testing good players. For everyone else it’s too penal when there isn’t enough room.

[Scott Warren]

Rather than a reverse-camber, I like the solution Tom Doak and Mike Clayton found at the 3rd hole at Barnbougle Dunes, where the hole bends to the right and the fairway is two-tiered with the right-hand half a good eight feet higher than the left-hand half.


A brave shot to the inside half gives a much better angle and look at the green, rather than the ball just bounding left no matter what as the case would be were the fairway a more constant right-to-left slope.

[Rory Connaughton]

15 at Lancaster is a reverse camber dogleg right. The majority of fairway lies are above your feet to a green that favors a left to right left shot. It's my favorite hole on the course.

[Charlie Goerges]

Even the coolest things aren’t cool in excess. My home club has no less than six of these things and at some point, it’s just hard for hard’s sake. I understand the utility reverse camber doglegs provide when testing good players. For everyone else it’s too penal when there isn’t enough room.

I'd agree that six is too many on a single course. One is good, two would be fine. I can't place an exact line, but six is definitely overkill. What is your strategy for playing those holes?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I began a thread on reverse camber a few years ago.


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,68615.0.html

[Tom_Doak]

Rather than a reverse-camber, I like the solution Tom Doak and Mike Clayton found at the 3rd hole at Barnbougle Dunes, where the hole bends to the right and the fairway is two-tiered with the right-hand half a good eight feet higher than the left-hand half.

A brave shot to the inside half gives a much better angle and look at the green, rather than the ball just bounding left no matter what as the case would be were the fairway a more constant right-to-left slope.

That little shelf in the fairway was a lovely natural feature, and the walk back to the tee from the previous green is designed to make use of it, as from the forward tee you just drive along the line.


Originally, there was a little dune at the end of the upper fairway that kept you from seeing the green well if you drove to the high side.  We kept whittling away at it trying to make the visibility better.  When I came back for my last site visit, Brian Schneider had just gotten tired of it and ripped the whole dune out of there.  Otherwise, it would never have made sense to try to keep your tee shot on the high shelf, which is the harder shot to pull off from the tee.

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