Green side bunkers that start significantly before the green. Thoughts?

[mike_malone]

Is this a good feature to start the green side bunker well before the green versus at the green? Is there a particular architectural style associated with this?
 I tend to like it but wonder what the crew thinks.


   ( Mark, don’t tell me it’s all about variety    )

[Joe Bausch]

Not long ago I played Maple Dale in Delaware and the 6th hole had this feature and I liked it!


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/MapleDale/pages/page_32.html

[Matt Schoolfield]

This makes me immediately think of the older, bump-and-run style of play, and presenting a forced carry that allows a run-up, rather than forcing folks using a mid-mashie to lay up and pitch on.

[Thomas Dai]

Prevailing vrs occasional wind direction is an influence.
With older courses so are the clubs of the era the course was built in and the likely lower than today trajectory of approach shots with such clubs. And back in a time before rangefinders ‘dead ground’ was used as a design feature.

Atb

[mike_malone]

Not long ago I played Maple Dale in Delaware and the 6th hole had this feature and I liked it!


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/MapleDale/pages/page_32.html

Joe,
Seems to be a good idea on a relatively flat course to create more interest.

[mike_malone]

John Mayhugh sent me his impressions of Rolling Green and mentioned that he thought the Flynn idea of bunkers starting before the green then continuing to the middle of the green was different from what he experienced from Ross who stopped before the green sometimes so you could miss the green but be over the bunker. It’s an interesting difference. I think his observation is spot on.

[Matt_Cohn]

Seems like you'd leave less-skilled players with a lot of 40 or 50 yard bunker shots, yeah?

[Tom_Doak]

Seems like you'd leave less-skilled players with a lot of 40 or 50 yard bunker shots, yeah?

If you use the feature in the wrong sorts of holes, yes.


I prefer to use it on a drivable par-4 or short par-5, where it punishes the player who shouldn’t have gone for the green.  On a short par-3 it’s just window dressing, and on a 400-yard par-4 it is a slap in the face to greens fee payers.

[mike_malone]

Seems like you'd leave less-skilled players with a lot of 40 or 50 yard bunker shots, yeah?

That’s true. Our fifth hole at Rolling Green had the right green side bunker recovered a few years ago to 35 yards from the green to start running up to the green’s edge. It’s a tough shot.

[Ian_L]

I prefer to use it on a drivable par-4 or short par-5, where it punishes the player who shouldn’t have gone for the green.

Like that pesky right bunker at Pacific Dunes #6! I have fanned a couple in there. I just splash out short of the green and try to get up and down with a putter.

[Craig Sweet]

Very common at Old Works...I find that these bunkers might be very wet close the green and much drier further from the green...and sometimes vice-versa.

[Sean_A]

I assume that in at least some cases the green has shrunk leaving an extended bunker. In any case, I like it, but I like features well short of the green.

Ciao

[Quinn Thompson]

…had a good point; then I didn’t !

[Jim_Coleman]

I prefer to use it on a drivable par-4 or short par-5, where it punishes the player who shouldn’t have gone for the green.  On a short par-3 it’s just window dressing, and on a 400-yard par-4 it is a slap in the face to greens fee payers.



   Then how do you justify the bunker 40ish yards short of the green on the 440 yard 4th at Bel Air? Unlike the bunker 40 yards short of the green on the long 5th at Merion, which protects against a weak shot bouncing onto the green, the bunker at Bel Air primarily punishes the weak golfer who probably can’t reach the green in regulation.
   If the answer is because that’s where it was 100 years ago, that’s not really much of an answer. 100 years ago, good players were hitting long irons or fairway woods into the green.

[Tom_Doak]

   Then how do you justify the bunker 40ish yards short of the green on the 440 yard 4th at Bel Air? Unlike the bunker 40 yards short of the green on the long 5th at Merion, which protects against a weak shot bouncing onto the green, the bunker at Bel Air primarily punishes the weak golfer who probably can’t reach the green in regulation.
   If the answer is because that’s where it was 100 years ago, that’s not really much of an answer. 100 years ago, good players were hitting long irons or fairway woods into the green.

Jim:


That's George Thomas's bunker and I don't have to "justify" it to anyone, including you.  What it asks is that if you're not sure you can get to the green -- whether you are a 15-handicap or a 5-handicap who's driven into the rough -- you should play safely away from the bunker.


I have the sneaking suspicion you went in that bunker yourself and were embarrassed.

[Ira Fishman]

I have always liked bunkers that are short of the green but look closer to it because they make the distance deceptive. Ross seems to have done it frequently.


But now it strikes me that the advent of range finders undermine the tactic. I do not use a GPS or range finder.

[Jim_Coleman]

Tom:  Trust me, I have been embarrassed on far less challenging situations.

[Kevin_Reilly]

I have always liked bunkers that are short of the green but look closer to it because they make the distance deceptive.

#1 at Olympic is a good example of that.  More recent to me, #3 at Orinda is another.  200+ downhill par 3 with a bunker on the left that appears from the tee to be close to the green, but it is roughly 25-30 yds short.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
I won’t talk about variety  but everything in moderation.

I like using bunkers that extend well short of the fill pad.  As pointed out they can create depth perception issues making the green appear closer than it really is as bunker size and location plays a key role in this.

I don’t think there is a particular style associated with the use of bunkers like this.  Many architects employ/ed this concept.  Tons of examples.

[mike_beene]

I have seen it used well on a longer hole with tight out of bounds. The shorter hitter is hitting a wood in and a little hook leaves a 40 yard bunker shot instead of the ball rolling OB. See number 9 at my home course which a few of you have seen.

[Tim Gavrich]

When judiciously used, I think the kinds of bunkers at issue here can perform a function that I think is one of the most important a compelling golf course can do: to teach players to play the game more intelligently. In the case of the bunker at Bel Air, it sounds like it is an effective deterrent against greedy shots from out of position.


Reckless smash-and-grab golf should be punished, even (and perhaps especially) from higher handicappers when there is a sensible alternative. I reckon that most 50-yard bunker shots are avoidable strategy failures (and chances for a lifetime-memory recovery shot). The key would seem to be not to belabor this point throughout an entire golf course, I guess.

[cary lichtenstein]

I for one, think it's stupid. The average golfer can't handle it and even the better player has major trouble.


 We have one at my home course and I went there a couple of times very late in the afternoon to figure out how to play the 40 yard shot and the 20 yard shot, I came away better for that drill, using a wedge, or 9 iron sand shot to come out lower and having it run out.


But I'll bet that 90% or more of the players on this board never did that and that shot is very troubling.

[Tom_Doak]

I for one, think it's stupid. The average golfer can't handle it and even the better player has major trouble.

But that’s exactly the reason to have bunkers in such positions, Cary.  Because they will punish even the good players who miss there, and should cause everyone to be more careful to avoid them.

[mike_malone]

In most cases these are 15 yards or less from the front of the green. It does create a slightly longer bunker shot. You can’t just pop out the shot. You need to hit it with distance control.

[Mark_Fine]

My goodness, greenside bunkers that start well before the green whether in front or on the sides might just be the most common feature used by ALL architects. Google the iconic 13th hole at Harbour Town by Pete Dye, there are too many holes with this feature to count at Oakmont and Cypress Point, and at Pine Valley the feature is everywhere.  I am not sure I could name a course that doesn’t have one.

Actually, yes I could - Royal Ashdown Forest. The course doesn’t have any bunkers