Additions to "Pines" (MP, PN, & SP) portfolio -- fact or fiction?

[Mike Feeney]

Can Ran, Jay Mickle, or any of our Southern Pines folks shed light on a transaction pending?  Kelly Miller acquiring Whispering Pines & Foxfire is the rumor -- both 36 hole properties.   Asking prices are (were?) certainly attractive.               
https://www.thepilot.com/news/whispering-pines-foxfire-golf-clubs-up-for-sale/article_446984a0-2378-11ef-b217-3f0e17a17833.html

[hhuffines]

I haven’t t been to Foxfire but my son and I played 18 at Whispering Pines a couple of weeks ago as a warm up round and it’s beyond obvious that the club there is really struggling.  It was only $30 but it was sad to see.  Typical old school Ellis Maples Pinehurst layout with some good holes.  I hope there is an effort to save it… the greens had plenty of grass and the fairways were ok but it was so bad I won’t be returning without a clean up.

[Peter Sayegh]

The emails I've received from both Foxfire and CCWP have alluded to a potential sale for a few months. The latest, dated Aug. 14:
"I know there are a lot of questions about the potential sale. We are close to sharing more information as things progress" from GreatLIFE Golf CEO John Brown.

I prefer the Foxfire courses over those at CCWP.

Instead of asking Ran or Jay, see what Kyle Franz is doing the next eighteen months. 

[Chris Hughes]

I'm having a hard time thinking of any logical reason why Kelly would get involved with either place...

[A.G._Crockett]

I'm having a hard time thinking of any logical reason why Kelly would get involved with either place...

Wouldn’t the logical reason be a profit motive?


Kelly Miller hasn’t gotten much wrong so far, and the ability FOUR golf courses with good bones for $5.5m or less might be another opportunity for his organization.  I’ve played all four, and they are good golf courses; they’re just in lousy condition. And he wouldn’t have to do there what was done at SP; just realizing the cost savings from equipment and chemicals, pro shop buying power, etc, might make it profitable.


I don’t have an especially good imagination, but I don’t have much trouble imagining a successful 3 or 4 round package with a couple of rounds at WP and Foxfire with one round at MP, PN, or SP. A package like that could be offered at rates well below the going rates in the Pinehurst area, given that I payed $105 to play #5 yesterday.

[Ira Fishman]

What happened to the rumor of the Keiser family investing in MP/PN/SP?

[Peter Sayegh]

I'm having a hard time thinking of any logical reason why Kelly would get involved with either place...

I don’t have much trouble imagining a successful 3 or 4 round package with a couple of rounds at WP and Foxfire with one round at MP, PN, or SP. A package like that could be offered at rates well below the going rates in the Pinehurst area, given that I payed $105 to play #5 yesterday.

For the past five years, any 2/3/4 round combination at CCWP/Foxfire and a single round at either MP/PN/SP or PCC #1/#3/#5 was a great affordable trip-especially with the specials offered by GreatLIFE Golf each year.
If the rumor is true, I doubt any "bundling" would be as attractive-or such a "bargain."

[A.G._Crockett]

I'm having a hard time thinking of any logical reason why Kelly would get involved with either place...

I don’t have much trouble imagining a successful 3 or 4 round package with a couple of rounds at WP and Foxfire with one round at MP, PN, or SP. A package like that could be offered at rates well below the going rates in the Pinehurst area, given that I payed $105 to play #5 yesterday.

For the past five years, any 2/3/4 round combination at CCWP/Foxfire and a single round at either MP/PN/SP or PCC #1/#3/#5 was a great affordable trip-especially with the specials offered by GreatLIFE Golf each year.
If the rumor is true, I doubt any "bundling" would be as attractive-or such a "bargain."

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying here.


If the current packages make for a great affordable trip, wouldn’t the same packages be even more attractive if CCWP and Foxfire were in great shape, which hasn’t been the case for a long, long time? 


If Miller were to buy those 4 courses, my guess would be that he thinks he could get them in much better condition simply by taking advantage of an economy of scale with the courses he already owns.


None of us actually know any of this, of course.  But Miller doesn’t seem to get much wrong when it comes to owning golf courses, so I’ll assume he’s crunching the numbers to see if this purchase will work.

[Philip Hensley]

Wouldn’t the first requirement for this deal to make sense that those other 4 courses be on the same level, or close, to MP/PN/SP?


It’s been many years since I played either FF or WP but I’m not sure the only drawback to those courses was that they haven’t been in good conditioning for some time.


I don’t see the benefit of adding 4 mediocre courses to the stable, even at a supposedly good price (easy to say when it’s not our money), in an effort to appeal to bargain hunting golf trippers.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I don’t see the benefit of adding 4 mediocre courses to the stable, even at a supposedly good price (easy to say when it’s not our money), in an effort to appeal to bargain hunting golf trippers.

With the price of rounds at MP/PN/SP, I'm not sure even half that or 2/3 of that cost is a "bargain" exactly. I could see a situation where players want to make a trip to the NC sandhills and spend on one or two courses… while adding an afternoon 18 or a third, fourth, or fifth day playing a slightly less expensive course, perhaps even as a warmup before they play the great courses.

[Peter Sayegh]

Word on the cart path is this may not be the only deal happening in the area.

[Edward Glidewell]

I've heard McConnell has wanted to buy a club in Pinehurst for several years -- I think he talked to Forest Creek at one point but they wanted too much. I wonder if he has his eyes on something else now.

[Philip Hensley]

Word on the cart path is this may not be the only deal happening in the area.

Someone adding to their legacy?

[Peter Sayegh]

Word on the cart path is this may not be the only deal happening in the area.

Someone adding to their legacy?

Bingo.

[Anthony Gholz]

Since this thread talks about the owners spending more money I would like to suggest they first blow up their accommodations on all three sites and start over.  Well, maybe keep the Mid Pines Hotel shell and blow up the interior.  I have stayed and played all three locations before and after Mr Franz' restorations and love to play al three.  However, my wife will not go back and stay at the properties until Jay states they have been "blown up" and rebuilt, not remodeled.

Glad to get that off my chest.Thanks. Anthony

[A.G._Crockett]

Word on the cart path is this may not be the only deal happening in the area.

Someone adding to their legacy?

Bingo.

Legacy has now been acquired by Talamore Golf, which also owns Mid South. 


I hope this means that Legacy will be put into better playing conditions; I really like the layout.  Interesting group of courses from a GCA perspective; a Rees Jones (Talamore), a Palmer (Mid South), and a Nicklaus Jr (Legacy). 

[Tim Martin]

I played Mid South this past Winter for the first time instead of Southern Pines which I had been to a number of times already. Not in the same ballpark as any of the three Southern Pines Ross courses and one I probably wouldn’t opt for again despite the conditioning being very good.

[Jay Mickle]

The "3 Pines" courses are arguably the 3,4 and 5 top courses in the neighborhood after #2 and #10. The condition of the accommodations at the original 2 courses rate very low on "Trip Advisor". If the lodges and hotel were even close to the quality of the golf, the "3 Pines" would be a top tier Resort.  Perhaps the wisest investment.
Apparently the purchase of the four courses is in a due diligence period. The addition of 4 mediocre courses does not seem to make sense unless as a totally separate entity with perhaps maintenance sharing to take advantage of economies of scale. Perhaps a good investment though a number of groups have owned and/or managed them in the past 15 years with no great success. They are not a Southern Pines or Woodlake.

[Ira Fishman]

We must be in the minority regarding the accommodations at MP/PN. It is true that there are more level lies on the course than in the MP hotel, the flaws enhance the overall low key, this is all about golf vibe. Plus the bar food at both MP and PN is solid. Not to mention the patio overlooking the 18th at MP which may not have an equal in the US (especially a cocktail with Jay on his designated part of the patio).


Good bed, good shower, good food, good pours, good rates. Great golf.

[Edward Glidewell]

I played Mid South this past Winter for the first time instead of Southern Pines which I had been to a number of times already. Not in the same ballpark as any of the three Southern Pines Ross courses and one I probably wouldn’t opt for again despite the conditioning being very good.

I thought Mid South was surprisingly good -- better than I'd expected -- but it's in a pretty tough neighborhood. It's certainly not a top 5 course in the Pinehurst area, but it would probably be the best public course in the Atlanta area if it was transplanted here.

[A.G._Crockett]

We must be in the minority regarding the accommodations at MP/PN. It is true that there are more level lies on the course than in the MP hotel, the flaws enhance the overall low key, this is all about golf vibe. Plus the bar food at both MP and PN is solid. Not to mention the patio overlooking the 18th at MP which may not have an equal in the US (especially a cocktail with Jay on his designated part of the patio).


Good bed, good shower, good food, good pours, good rates. Great golf.

I’ve never stayed at MP, but staying in the lodges at PN is very cool, IMO, especially if you are in the Ross Lodge and can step out the back door and hit balls out into the range.  The lodges aren’t 4 star hotels, for sure, but they aren’t supposed to be.

[jim_lewis]

I have lived in the area for about 25 years, and I can't remember a time when Whispering Pines and Foxfire have not been for sale. In fact, both have changed hands a few times. Neither is in the same league with MP/PN/SP so adding them to the portfolio would only diminish it.


Several years ago, Kelly mentioned to me that he was considering remodeling the MP Inn. I encouraged him to keep it as it is. I think the uneven floors add character to a pretty cool inn.

[Chris Hughes]

We must be in the minority regarding the accommodations at MP/PN. It is true that there are more level lies on the course than in the MP hotel, the flaws enhance the overall low key, this is all about golf vibe. Plus the bar food at both MP and PN is solid. Not to mention the patio overlooking the 18th at MP which may not have an equal in the US (especially a cocktail with Jay on his designated part of the patio).


Good bed, good shower, good food, good pours, good rates. Great golf.

I’ve never stayed at MP, but staying in the lodges at PN is very cool, IMO, especially if you are in the Ross Lodge and can step out the back door and hit balls out into the range.  The lodges aren’t 4 star hotels, for sure, but they aren’t supposed to be.

Concur on PN.  I've stayed in all forms of the lodging they offer (including Ross Lodge multiple) and all have been terrific! 

At MP the proshop, locker room and lounge are all awesome but the cottage we rented from the club was completely unacceptable, just an embarrassment. 

Staying at PN and playing those 3 courses has to be one of the best values in golf.

Agree with what Jim Lewis said, WP and FF just don't fit.

[Anthony Gholz]

Ira/Jim etal
Regarding the "good bed" comment.
When we stayed at the MP Hotel there were only two rooms occupied on our floor.  High season.  The room we had was "rustic."  The bed we slept in may have been the exact bed my parents slept in during the 1960s.  I'm not sure if the sheets were original as well.  The dining room for a romantic dinner with your wife and another couple was "lacking."

A guys trip for 36 holes a day, eating bar food and patio drinking probably works, but don't bring your wives. 

Anthony

[Ira Fishman]

Anthony,


I have been to MP/PN probably a dozen times. Every one was with my wife. We never eat anywhere but in one of the bars. I will admit that she now prefers PN lodging to MP lodging, but if I told her PN was booked, she would say “MP it is.”


Ira