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Ryan Book

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Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« on: August 22, 2024, 10:21:36 AM »
A plan leaked yesterday showing that the state of Florida aims to incorporate various recreational attractions at various Florida state park properties. The most noteworthy is a 45-hole golf complex at Jonathan Dickinson SP near Hobe Sound. On one hand, I argue vehemently for high-end golf/park dynamics to improve funding for valuable wildlife protection. On that same hand, when I hear "two 18s and one 9," I get the idea that someone has read up on the Dream Golf / Cabot model. Continuing on that same hand, despite being a leftist on green issues, DeSantis's most left-leaning moments are in the environmental protection arena.

On the other hand, such a plan calls for more than just a good faith effort to sustain ecologically important terrain when working within parkland. On social media, I've seen numerous golf-friendly voices suggesting this plan may be too much to be comfortable. I've no context to say one way or the other. Happy to hear pragmatic observations.

This article is obviously a bit biased but it sums up the bigger points.

Opposition grows on building golf course at Jonathan Dickinson State Park (msn.com)
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@BethpageBlackMetal

Kyle Harris

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Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2024, 09:23:44 PM »
Oh. You’re you!


As I said on your thread. Golf doesn’t need to be here. It doesn’t need to be everywhere suited to golf and this site would potentially have a Top 5 course ever built in the correct hands.


That being said: still a hard no.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Keith Phillips

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Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2024, 07:44:57 AM »
Hmm, very interesting.  I live a mile from the gates of Jonathan Dickinson and hadn't heard anything about this.  On first glance I would fear the traffic and the general impact on the wildlife sanctuary, on the other hand Martin County is growing rapidly and quality public golf options are few and far between.  Yes, lots of new high-end privates coming but that doesn't help the bulk of the population.  I can't see the 'maps' that were referred to but is there any indication of where they'd go in terms of golf designers?

Ryan Book

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Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2024, 10:38:13 AM »
Hmm, very interesting.  I live a mile from the gates of Jonathan Dickinson and hadn't heard anything about this.  On first glance I would fear the traffic and the general impact on the wildlife sanctuary, on the other hand Martin County is growing rapidly and quality public golf options are few and far between.  Yes, lots of new high-end privates coming but that doesn't help the bulk of the population.  I can't see the 'maps' that were referred to but is there any indication of where they'd go in terms of golf designers?


As an optimist, I look at the "two 18s and a 9" and think "surely this person is looking to create a Dream Golf-style complex, and draft the same acclaimed architects who have helped make Bandon et al as eco-friendly as they are stunning."

More cynical individuals -- who have more context than I as well -- have pointed out that a decade-plus ago, there was a Jack Nicklaus project plotted for Dickinson, which was struck down. Those same individuals have pointed out that Gary Nicklaus has been appointed as a board member of the Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission. That the Dickinson plan was among a slew of golf proposals at various state parks, that there might be a hint that a RTJ Trail-type effort might be in play.

For the time being, Gary Nicklaus has avoided any real comment, although he's irritated. "I'm pretty annoyed with everybody wanting to tar and feather me without any facts" was his quote to local media. That said, he said he'll be releasing a formal statement later to address said rumors.
"Cops are an abomination." - C.B. Macdonald and/or Jello Biafra

@BethpageBlackMetal

Ryan Book

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Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2024, 10:44:55 AM »
The video at the top of this coverage shows the proposed locations at Dickinson:


https://www.wctv.tv/2024/08/22/proposal-should-not-move-forward-backlash-against-state-park-golf-course-plan-grows/
"Cops are an abomination." - C.B. Macdonald and/or Jello Biafra

@BethpageBlackMetal

cary lichtenstein

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Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2024, 03:56:35 PM »
I live in Jupiter, the next town north is Hobe Sound where Jonathan Dickenson State Park is. The park consists of 10,500 Acres, the proposed plan is to use 1000 acres, about 9%.


I think this is a wonderful proposal, to give the area excellent PUBLIC GOLF & PICKELBALL FACILITIES.


We have private and gated communities with membership fees ranging from $300,000 to $650,000 which is ridiculous.


Why not give area residents access to world class facilities that are public using only 9% of this park???


My vote is YES.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2024, 04:17:41 PM »
I am a snowbird but legally a resident of Palm Beach Gardens.


I am a loud NO. There is plenty of developable land in the area. Why are we going into a state park?


Also wanted to share I received a text from the state senator in Martin County (not even my legislator).  An 81 y/o Republican who is a NO and is threatening legislation to stop the development.


The text says there is a public hearing Tuesday that’s apparently being moved to a larger venue due to “capacity concerns.”


prediction: this proposal will go down in flames
« Last Edit: August 24, 2024, 05:28:39 AM by Mike Worth »

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2024, 04:30:45 PM »




We have private and gated communities with membership fees ranging from $300,000 to $650,000 which is ridiculous.


Why not give area residents access to world class facilities that are public using only 9% of this park???


My vote is YES.


I literally just put two and two together — I get a newsletter from you once every three weeks or so about real estate sales activity in my development in Palm Beach Gardens

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2024, 04:52:21 PM »
It’s no secret my contributions to golf construction & maintenance along with what my profession is. While I will agree, the level of good public golf in PBC & Martin is minimal at best, JD Park isn’t the place to start developing golf for locals. There are way too many people that LOVE JD park just the way it is & the negative push back on the potential project is astounding.
  There are plenty of other parcels of land that can be delivered without destroying JD park. If you’ve ever been there, went up to the observation deck, you’d understand. Hard NO from the golf centric local.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2024, 04:53:19 PM »
Linked is a Tampa Bay Times article.




The gist of the article is that Senators Scott and Rubio are against the proposal as is Congressman Mast (he represents Martin Co).


The article shows golf and other recreation facilities are being planned for several state parks.


I guess if you’re a fan of pickle ball and golf contained in the same facility, this is your cup of tea. Lol.


https://www.tampabay.com/news/environment/2024/08/23/scott-rubio-desantis-florida-state-park-golf-course-jonathan-dickinson/


https://x.com/repbrianmast/status/1826759617730543905?s=46&t=oexnrwi8ieC30Ax9EWlyug
« Last Edit: August 23, 2024, 05:39:47 PM by Mike Worth »

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2024, 05:31:14 AM »
New reporting is that Folds of Honor is behind the proposal to build golf courses in Florida state parks.


it all ties back to the Nicklaus design firm.


there is a degree of intrigue here as the article suggests someone made a proposal directly to the Governor, who then rammed it through DEP.


The news leaks are coming from inside DEP.


https://www.wpbf.com/article/michigan-veterans-group-jack-nicklaus-golf-courses-jonathan-dickinsen-state-park-florida/61960025
« Last Edit: August 24, 2024, 05:36:12 AM by Mike Worth »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2024, 08:10:10 PM »
IIRC, there was a proposal in Florida after the crash in 2008 to build golf courses in the state parks . . . suggested by Jack Nicklaus to then-gov Jeb Bush.


It would not have been outlandish 20-25 years ago; Tennessee did the same thing back then, and of course Bethpage is a NY State Park.


But the idea of developing that particular stretch of dunes in FL is probably going to meet a LOT of resistance, by everyone in Hobe Sound for starters.  And they do wield some influence on state government!

Steve_Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2024, 09:11:03 PM »
Wrong use of that land for that purpose. Jonathan Dickinson is one of several state parks all around the State of Florida proposed for the development of everything from golf, to pickleball, to a 350 key hotel at Anastasia State Park near St Augustine.


I think golf can be used for the civic/community and even ecological good in some publicly held lands - but not here.


Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2024, 10:02:48 PM »
IIRC, there was a proposal in Florida after the crash in 2008 to build golf courses in the state parks . . . suggested by Jack Nicklaus to then-gov Jeb Bush.


It would not have been outlandish 20-25 years ago; Tennessee did the same thing back then, and of course Bethpage is a NY State Park.


But the idea of developing that particular stretch of dunes in FL is probably going to meet a LOT of resistance, by everyone in Hobe Sound for starters.  And they do wield some influence on state government!


A couple of other examples of golf on public lands are Fundy Park New Brunswick and Highland Links NS both built within national parks of Canada



But it seems the era of constructing golf courses in preserved public lands is over - for the same reasons I’d imagine it’s essentially a non-starter along the coasts of Scotland and Ireland.


With regard to Florida, the proposal was first made to Governor Scott in 2011. He had the good sense to promptly dismiss it. 




Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2024, 11:26:15 PM »
A couple of other examples of golf on public lands are Fundy Park New Brunswick and Highland Links NS both built within national parks of Canada 
Both Banff and Jasper Park are also in National Park and are in the list of the 147 Custodians.

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2024, 09:29:29 AM »
There are big, potentially game-shaping implications/questions at play here.

Namely: Where does golf belong in the public sphere, and where does it not belong?


While I understand the land within JDSP is special, I wonder if the opposition to putting environmentally-sensitive golf just means the perpetuation of the myth that only the wealthy get to enjoy great golf on great land - something the last two decades of municipal golf renovations have helped to start to dismantle. Jupiter Hills is literally in the same dunes system as the park, after all. Why should that club's members get to enjoy the type of golf that could have been built just three miles up the road?

If adding public golf into such a beautiful natural environment as JDSP is deemed unacceptable, how far removed are we from arguments in favor of removing existing public golf from beautiful natural environments? Jekyll Island, a state park in Georgia and a place of considerable natural beauty, is getting ready to rehab Walter Travis' Great Dunes course along with the rest of the golf there. Why is golf okay on the dunes of Jekyll Island but not acceptable in Jonathan Dickinson State Park? I don't think "Great Dunes has been there a long time" is a particularly persuasive moral argument in this case.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2024, 11:00:59 AM by Tim Gavrich »
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Ryan Book

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2024, 10:24:10 AM »
Having zero context at the onset, I've since been convinced by many (golf-centric) folk on the ground in the area that converting areas of Jonathan Dickinson to golf course is a poor decision. The base idea, however -- allocating portions of park to facilities and activities that can generate funds for (often) underfunded park systems is a good one. I've bored many over the years with my concept for a Dream Golf-type resort at Wayne National Forest in my homeland. Many national forests, including Wayne, are much less environmentally-dense than national parks; Wayne, for example, is covered by thousands upon thousands of acres of farmland, which hasn't been "forest" since the early 19th century. Due to the "national forest" identification, Wayne doesn't exactly draw tourists like even Cuyahoga, its less-spectacular national park cousin. Plenty of (tree-less) land, less than three-hours from four pro sports-host cities...obviously I'm biased...but I think it could work here and at other park systems that have humanized land to recycle.
"Cops are an abomination." - C.B. Macdonald and/or Jello Biafra

@BethpageBlackMetal

Keith Phillips

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Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2024, 11:30:05 AM »
I see both sides.  On the one hand, high-end private options abound in the Jupiter/Hobe Sound area but there is a dearth of quality public courses.  Done right, this could be a fantastic recreational amenity for locals and the public at large.  Imagine two affordable 18s by your favorite architects, possibly with a 9-hole executive course or short course for novices and kids.  A small part of the park's 10,000 acres would be impacted and this would be in the northeast portion closest to US-1 and with minimal impact on other park activities. (In my experience the park provides trailer parking in the southeast, wonderful bike trails in the central section, and access to the Loxahatchee River in the west, all far away from the area designated for golf.  The 'traffic' in the park is minimal - I've been there a dozen times and the biggest crowd is the mountain bikers coming in and out to their designated trails.)


Having said all that, as we've seen with the development of Apogee, Atlantic Fields, Grove XXIII, The Ranch, and Sandglass, there is no limit to the developable private land in the area. Perhaps a better plan may be a purpose-built state/county facility on (now) private land - turned into a new State Park, leaving JD in its current form. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2024, 12:32:14 PM »
I see both sides.  On the one hand, high-end private options abound in the Jupiter/Hobe Sound area but there is a dearth of quality public courses.  Done right, this could be a fantastic recreational amenity for locals and the public at large.  Imagine two affordable 18s by your favorite architects, possibly with a 9-hole executive course or short course for novices and kids.  A small part of the park's 10,000 acres would be impacted and this would be in the northeast portion closest to US-1 and with minimal impact on other park activities. (In my experience the park provides trailer parking in the southeast, wonderful bike trails in the central section, and access to the Loxahatchee River in the west, all far away from the area designated for golf.  The 'traffic' in the park is minimal - I've been there a dozen times and the biggest crowd is the mountain bikers coming in and out to their designated trails.)


Having said all that, as we've seen with the development of Apogee, Atlantic Fields, Grove XXIII, The Ranch, and Sandglass, there is no limit to the developable private land in the area. Perhaps a better plan may be a purpose-built state/county facility on (now) private land - turned into a new State Park, leaving JD in its current form.


My reaction is mixed.  Generally, I do believe that a golf course can be developed in an environmentally sound manner on sensitive sites, and be a net win for the community.  The land where the project is proposed is no more beautiful or sensitive than Pacific Dunes, with the exception that is already reserved by the state.


So if you turned me loose, I'd be happy to build a golf course in a National Park, like Stanley Thompson did.  And every time I fly into Amsterdam, I shake my head at the Europeans who made it impossible to build a golf course in all of those beautiful dunes along the coast that are reserved for public recreation.


But it's also easy to see the other side of the equation . . . developers of any kind would clamor to build a project on a formerly protected site that community development has surrounded over time.  If they let it become a golf course, then the next step will be "Why just golf?"  And very quickly there would be nothing left but the carcass.





Part of the reason the proposal will fail is that the developers of all of those new courses would resent the idea of someone building a facility that competes with theirs, on basically free land, that's better than what those developers were able to purchase through normal means.


There is also the question of whether a state park should be for the use of state residents, or to attract visitors?  What starts out as one thing [low cost golf for residents] could very quickly become another [high cost golf for visitors, with solid profits to the operating entities].

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2024, 12:46:49 PM »
Don't know the area, so I don't have an opinion, but I just wanted to point out an equivocation about parks (especially state parks), that if not spelled out, can be the source of much of the consternation.

That is, what function do we want parks to serve?

Parks as wildlife refuges: the environmentalists here seem to be making the 'park as last refuge of nature' argument, and that seems to be one of the functions that I see for parks generally. Obvious examples include Great Basin National Park, Pinnacles, and Joshua Tree (though the Mohave National Preserve has likely done more for that species). In this type of park, developing a golf course is almost universally a bad idea as we would be asking local flora to compete with the genetically-designed-to-out-compete grasses we've developed over the last hundred years. In this situation, and again I don't know the local ecology, but seeing significant wildlife areas west of the park makes me less concerned than I would normally be about a development.

Parks as conservation of uniquely beautiful natural features: many if not most of our natural parks are primarily set aside for this reason. You look at Yosemite, which contains a golf course, and you immediately know that it is set aside not for wildlife (while they may benefit), but for the uniqueness of the beauty of the valley it sits in. The same for Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, Zion, etc. While controversial, I see no reason that golf courses cannot be added to these types of places, assuming that is what people want. This is likely the argument for course in places like Jasper and Banff.

Parks as recreational retreats: I think this is what people want in parks, even if they pretend otherwise (see: mountain bike trails at the park in question). It's also often in complete contrast to the natural environment that people associate with parks. We only need to look at the facade of nature that exists in most urban parks to understand this; e.g., Golden Gate Park, once simply dunes and a few oak trees, is now a bustling garden for myriad non-native species, thriving on trucked in soil, which has wildly reduced the habitat for the native sand-dwelling creatures. The most obvious example of this for our purposes here is Bethpage State Park, which is almost exclusively for recreation, primarily golf.

---

I think this conflation of ideas into a single word can complicate the debate in what is the appropriate use for any given park. While every park has a bit of mixed use, if the primary function of the park is well defined it would better facilitate any discussion of expanded use for the park in question. Here in SF, there was much consternation an attempt to add artificial lighting and turf to Golden Gate Park as removing the natural state and habitats of the park, which was thankfully disregarded as the people making that argument had no idea what they were talking about. This fact also made the redesign of GGPGC much easier as the main argument there was a move toward the original natural state of the park by removing the imported soil and non-native trees that had placed there decades ago.

The existence of Sharp Park in the Bay Area has obviously run up against the fact that it must now exist as a wildlife refuge, as development along the coast has removed the habitat of a couple threatened species. This complicates the operations of the course, but, ironically, the fresh water the course provides to the lagoon is probably the only reason it still exists.

I wish the folks in Jupiter luck, but I do find it pretty wild that the state is proposing adding a golf course to a park that is literally surrounded on all sides by golf courses... including Tiger Woods' private three-hole practice facility on Jupiter Island, and he is hardly the only person with visible golf facilities on the island.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2024, 01:05:02 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Keith Phillips

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Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2024, 01:14:20 PM »
Just learned that the proposal has been pulled - that didn't take long!
« Last Edit: August 26, 2024, 01:22:58 PM by Keith Phillips »

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2024, 07:55:49 PM »

I want to push back somewhat on the notion that there’s little affordable golf in Palm Beach and Martin counties


Just off the top of my head, listing courses I’ve played within the last year:


In Palm Beach County: The Park, North Palm Municipal, Sand Hill Crane, Atlantic National. And we have three Par 3 courses (The Park, Palm Bch Island, and the Nest)



In the southern part of Martin County is Hammock Creek, the Florida Club, and Lost Lake.


And to preempt those who will chime in and say The Park is too expensive I would note it’s much less expensive for Florida residents and the green fee is still under $100 if you are a City of West Palm resident.





Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2024, 08:23:54 PM »
Just learned that the proposal has been pulled - that didn't take long!


I hope the linked article is not behind a firewall. The proposal, which FL DEP confirms was pulled, was made by a mysterious Delaware-incorporated company – Tuskegee Dunes Foundation.


and Joe Namath’s daughter is involved as an activist against the project.


https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/local/2024/08/25/group-drops-plan-for-golf-courses-at-jonathan-dickinson-state-park/74925730007/

Ryan Book

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2024, 09:00:38 AM »

Tom, does your experience at Memorial Park and/or general observation suggest that there's an ideal ratio of local versus outsider play that both fulfills a municipality's duty to its citizens, while also running nicely in the black for the municipality's benefit?

I see both sides.  On the one hand, high-end private options abound in the Jupiter/Hobe Sound area but there is a dearth of quality public courses.  Done right, this could be a fantastic recreational amenity for locals and the public at large.  Imagine two affordable 18s by your favorite architects, possibly with a 9-hole executive course or short course for novices and kids.  A small part of the park's 10,000 acres would be impacted and this would be in the northeast portion closest to US-1 and with minimal impact on other park activities. (In my experience the park provides trailer parking in the southeast, wonderful bike trails in the central section, and access to the Loxahatchee River in the west, all far away from the area designated for golf.  The 'traffic' in the park is minimal - I've been there a dozen times and the biggest crowd is the mountain bikers coming in and out to their designated trails.)


Having said all that, as we've seen with the development of Apogee, Atlantic Fields, Grove XXIII, The Ranch, and Sandglass, there is no limit to the developable private land in the area. Perhaps a better plan may be a purpose-built state/county facility on (now) private land - turned into a new State Park, leaving JD in its current form.


My reaction is mixed.  Generally, I do believe that a golf course can be developed in an environmentally sound manner on sensitive sites, and be a net win for the community.  The land where the project is proposed is no more beautiful or sensitive than Pacific Dunes, with the exception that is already reserved by the state.


So if you turned me loose, I'd be happy to build a golf course in a National Park, like Stanley Thompson did.  And every time I fly into Amsterdam, I shake my head at the Europeans who made it impossible to build a golf course in all of those beautiful dunes along the coast that are reserved for public recreation.


But it's also easy to see the other side of the equation . . . developers of any kind would clamor to build a project on a formerly protected site that community development has surrounded over time.  If they let it become a golf course, then the next step will be "Why just golf?"  And very quickly there would be nothing left but the carcass.





Part of the reason the proposal will fail is that the developers of all of those new courses would resent the idea of someone building a facility that competes with theirs, on basically free land, that's better than what those developers were able to purchase through normal means.


There is also the question of whether a state park should be for the use of state residents, or to attract visitors?  What starts out as one thing [low cost golf for residents] could very quickly become another [high cost golf for visitors, with solid profits to the operating entities].
"Cops are an abomination." - C.B. Macdonald and/or Jello Biafra

@BethpageBlackMetal

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2024, 11:34:58 AM »
Apparently, this isn’t quite over


The locals, seemingly unsatisfied with getting the developer to withdraw the project after only 3 days of protests, have petitioned US Senator Rubio about converting Jonathan Dickson Park from State to Federal control.


Linked is an article where the tiny, insignificant, and impoverished town of Jupiter Island has weighed in (lol)


https://www.wptv.com/news/treasure-coast/region-martin-county/jupiter-island-sends-letter-to-rubio-asks-if-jonathan-dickinson-state-park-qualifies-for-national-park-status