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Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2024, 12:08:33 PM »
A couple of other examples of golf on public lands are Fundy Park New Brunswick and Highland Links NS both built within national parks of Canada
One difference between the golf courses in the Canadian national parks and this proposal is the difference in size.  Banff has one 18 hole course in an area that is 2576 square miles or 1.6 million acres.  Cape Breton Highlands has one course in a park that is 235,000 acres.   It looks like they wanted to put in 45 holes in a state park that is 10,000 acres.

Richard DeMenna

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Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2024, 02:01:55 PM »
The public backlash was immense enough to have the developer pull out of the project. Also, today’s public meetings throughout the state has been postponed.


https://www.clickorlando.com/news/florida/2024/08/26/plan-to-develop-florida-state-parks-faces-setback-as-golf-course-backer-pulls-out/

Keith Williams

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Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2024, 03:08:19 PM »
What a fascinating and quickly evolving situation to observe.  Given the available details of the proposal, I'm not surprised at the outcome, but as an outdoors enthusiast, avid golfer and having worked in public policy/public administration for over two decades I do believe this really highlights how much of a lightning rod golf development can still be in a community and illustrates the delicate/precarious nature of government funded golf.  Separately, and not to be too political, it will also likely be fodder for general government distrust and arguments over unchecked authority.


I could spend hours discussing/debating the merits and philosophies of government (at any level) getting involved in the golf course business; and the truth is that there is never any universally correct answer...context matters and what does make sense in one situation could be an awful decision in another.  While this project was more "uncovered" than promoted, it is clear that the state missed the key "read the room" step in gauging public support. 


I do hope, though, that this situation doesn't permanently stain the perception of publicly funded golf for the rest of the state of Florida; there is likely more opportunity there for a formula that works than many other places.


-Keith

Mike Worth

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Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2024, 04:32:25 PM »
What a fascinating and quickly evolving situation to observe.  Given the available details of the proposal, I'm not surprised at the outcome, but as an outdoors enthusiast, avid golfer and having worked in public policy/public administration for over two decades I do believe this really highlights how much of a lightning rod golf development can still be in a community and illustrates the delicate/precarious nature of government funded golf.  Separately, and not to be too political, it will also likely be fodder for general government distrust and arguments over unchecked authority.


I could spend hours discussing/debating the merits and philosophies of government (at any level) getting involved in the golf course business; and the truth is that there is never any universally correct answer...context matters and what does make sense in one situation could be an awful decision in another.  While this project was more "uncovered" than promoted, it is clear that the state missed the key "read the room" step in gauging public support. 


I do hope, though, that this situation doesn't permanently stain the perception of publicly funded golf for the rest of the state of Florida; there is likely more opportunity there for a formula that works than many other places.


-Keith


My background in public administration and golf sounds similar to yours


To me, this is very simple - golf courses don’t belong in a FL state park


Ever since purchasing my second home in Palm Beach county 11 years ago, I have learned how the locals and State law protect environment.


Whether it’s staying clear of turtle nesting areas on beaches, respecting mangrove and coral reefs when taking my jet ski out in Key West. watching out for manatee when boating by strictly observing waterway, speed limits, FL is an environmentally friendly State


FL State parks are forever wild areas protected from development and that’s the way it should remain. To the vast majority of Floridians, there is no debate or multiple sides or other points of view. It’s the environment.

McArthur State park is the FL park closest to my home. There is little to do in there other than take a healthy hike, or perhaps rent a kayak or walk along the beach or in an amongst the mangrove.  Floridians love that as do I

« Last Edit: August 27, 2024, 04:40:58 PM by Mike Worth »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2024, 04:45:25 PM »
This thread has been an interesting contrast to what's happening in Utah, another conservative controlled state.  They have been trying to get control of federal public land to let private interests (which heavily lobby the state government) ultimately have control over them.

https://apnews.com/article/utah-public-lands-state-control-lawsuit-6459622b4534dcdd150731c84ed2a7b9

The intent of the lawsuit is beyond farcical given their decades long track record.

Conservationists blasted the lawsuit as a threat to the red rock canyons, mesas and other natural landscapes that draw throngs of tourists to Utah.
“With today’s announcement, Utah has firmly established itself as the most anti-public lands state in the country,” said Stephen Bloch of the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2024, 05:24:11 PM »
What a fascinating and quickly evolving situation to observe.  Given the available details of the proposal, I'm not surprised at the outcome, but as an outdoors enthusiast, avid golfer and having worked in public policy/public administration for over two decades I do believe this really highlights how much of a lightning rod golf development can still be in a community and illustrates the delicate/precarious nature of government funded golf.  Separately, and not to be too political, it will also likely be fodder for general government distrust and arguments over unchecked authority.
Sorry if this is a naive take on the situation, but I am Canadian so I may not know all of the intricacies.
If something like this is shot down so quickly in Florida with a Republican governor, where Trump is expected to carry the state, and at a site that is 25 miles from Mar-a-Lago, does this mean that development in more left leaning parts of the US would have even less chance of success?

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2024, 05:50:51 PM »
What a fascinating and quickly evolving situation to observe.  Given the available details of the proposal, I'm not surprised at the outcome, but as an outdoors enthusiast, avid golfer and having worked in public policy/public administration for over two decades I do believe this really highlights how much of a lightning rod golf development can still be in a community and illustrates the delicate/precarious nature of government funded golf.  Separately, and not to be too political, it will also likely be fodder for general government distrust and arguments over unchecked authority.
Sorry if this is a naive take on the situation, but I am Canadian so I may not know all of the intricacies.
If something like this is shot down so quickly in Florida with a Republican governor, where Trump is expected to carry the state, and at a site that is 25 miles from Mar-a-Lago, does this mean that development in more left leaning parts of the US would have even less chance of success?




You’re reading way too much into the situation. Regardless of political party Floridians are pro environment.


That’s one of two areas everyone in Florida is united on the other is the absurd cost of ensuring property


you can’t extrapolate this to anywhere else in the US


Keith Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2024, 09:12:25 PM »
Apparently, this isn’t quite over


The locals, seemingly unsatisfied with getting the developer to withdraw the project after only 3 days of protests, have petitioned US Senator Rubio about converting Jonathan Dickson Park from State to Federal control.

I'm relaxed about this outcome, but the idea that Floridians would be happier with Federal control of our parks is DOA.  Very happy to have Florida politicians rationally and efficiently arrive at a conclusion that most seem happy with.  DC, keep your paws off Florida!


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2024, 10:07:46 AM »

If something like this is shot down so quickly in Florida with a Republican governor, where Trump is expected to carry the state, and at a site that is 25 miles from Mar-a-Lago, does this mean that development in more left leaning parts of the US would have even less chance of success?


Wayne:


I don't know that anywhere in the U.S. is a better candidate for using state parks for golf, but in general, "blue" states have more environmental rules and red tape than "red" states, so the permitting for a golf course takes a lot longer.  Places like Nebraska, Texas and Montana have almost no rules . . . places like California, New York and Pennsylvania have rules on top of rules.  Florida does have more rules than you would expect from this generalization, mostly related to stopping fertilizer run-off into water bodies.

Keith Williams

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2024, 10:10:40 AM »
What a fascinating and quickly evolving situation to observe.  Given the available details of the proposal, I'm not surprised at the outcome, but as an outdoors enthusiast, avid golfer and having worked in public policy/public administration for over two decades I do believe this really highlights how much of a lightning rod golf development can still be in a community and illustrates the delicate/precarious nature of government funded golf.  Separately, and not to be too political, it will also likely be fodder for general government distrust and arguments over unchecked authority.


I could spend hours discussing/debating the merits and philosophies of government (at any level) getting involved in the golf course business; and the truth is that there is never any universally correct answer...context matters and what does make sense in one situation could be an awful decision in another.  While this project was more "uncovered" than promoted, it is clear that the state missed the key "read the room" step in gauging public support. 


I do hope, though, that this situation doesn't permanently stain the perception of publicly funded golf for the rest of the state of Florida; there is likely more opportunity there for a formula that works than many other places.


-Keith


My background in public administration and golf sounds similar to yours


To me, this is very simple - golf courses don’t belong in a FL state park


Ever since purchasing my second home in Palm Beach county 11 years ago, I have learned how the locals and State law protect environment.


Whether it’s staying clear of turtle nesting areas on beaches, respecting mangrove and coral reefs when taking my jet ski out in Key West. watching out for manatee when boating by strictly observing waterway, speed limits, FL is an environmentally friendly State


FL State parks are forever wild areas protected from development and that’s the way it should remain. To the vast majority of Floridians, there is no debate or multiple sides or other points of view. It’s the environment.

McArthur State park is the FL park closest to my home. There is little to do in there other than take a healthy hike, or perhaps rent a kayak or walk along the beach or in an amongst the mangrove.  Floridians love that as do I


Mike, thanks for the response; yes, I have great familiarity with Floridians respect for the environment.  I spent a decade living and practicing the the single most environmentally conscious community in the state and agree with what you wrote.


With that said, I will play devil's advocate on one item:


If the state so wished, golf courses absolutely do have a potential place in the State Park System.  The mission of Florida State Parks is, "To provide resource-based recreation while preserving, interpreting and restoring natural and cultural resources".  I'm not saying it is a good idea (or good policy...lots of questions to be asked on this front), but it does fall squarely within the scope of the State Park Service.


The proposal for Jonathan Dickinson was a bad one all around.  The park is extremely popular, protects some of the last undeveloped/lightly developed land in the immediate area, and despite its quality as grounds for golf, choosing to specifically site the course(s) over an ecosystem (interior dune/scrub) that exists in such scarcity was a losing proposition.  Even if the locals hadn't offered such outcry, any number of conservation groups or NFP's would have gotten it killed as well.


-Keith

Keith Williams

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2024, 10:21:57 AM »
Apparently, this isn’t quite over


The locals, seemingly unsatisfied with getting the developer to withdraw the project after only 3 days of protests, have petitioned US Senator Rubio about converting Jonathan Dickson Park from State to Federal control.

I'm relaxed about this outcome, but the idea that Floridians would be happier with Federal control of our parks is DOA.  Very happy to have Florida politicians rationally and efficiently arrive at a conclusion that most seem happy with.  DC, keep your paws off Florida!



Keith,


I agree that a transfer to Federal ownership is extremely unlikely.  The theory behind that likely came based on layers of protection.  Florida has an extremely robust land management program and one of the best State Park Systems in the country.  They also partner with countless conservation groups and NFP's on preservation and management, but out of all that, one thing they don't currently have in their menu for state owned lands is a true wilderness area designation.  Conversely, at the federal level, within the National Park Service, certain park lands can also be designated National Wilderness Areas, which gives added protections and restrictions against uses and development.  Again, it won't happen, but this type of designation would serve to obstruct any future political malfeasance.


-Keith

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida state parks / Jonathan Dickinson State Park
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2024, 12:01:09 PM »
Apparently, this isn’t quite over


The locals, seemingly unsatisfied with getting the developer to withdraw the project after only 3 days of protests, have petitioned US Senator Rubio about converting Jonathan Dickson Park from State to Federal control.

I'm relaxed about this outcome, but the idea that Floridians would be happier with Federal control of our parks is DOA.  Very happy to have Florida politicians rationally and efficiently arrive at a conclusion that most seem happy with.  DC, keep your paws off Florida!



Keith,


I agree that a transfer to Federal ownership is extremely unlikely.  The theory behind that likely came based on layers of protection.  Florida has an extremely robust land management program and one of the best State Park Systems in the country.  They also partner with countless conservation groups and NFP's on preservation and management, but out of all that, one thing they don't currently have in their menu for state owned lands is a true wilderness area designation.  Conversely, at the federal level, within the National Park Service, certain park lands can also be designated National Wilderness Areas, which gives added protections and restrictions against uses and development.  Again, it won't happen, but this type of designation would serve to obstruct any future political malfeasance.


-Keith


Someone else in this thread made the excellent point that golf courses contained within national parks in Canada take up insignificant acreage compared to the size of the park


that is definitely a factor  at Jonathan Dickinson.  not to mention the sensitivity of the habitat and the dunes


David_Tepper

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