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David_Tepper

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There are tree-lined courses......
« on: June 21, 2024, 09:57:56 PM »
...and then there's Sahalee. :)

Having played a lot of golf in the SF Bay Area over the past 45 years, I have played a lot of tree-lined golf (Olympic Lake, Harding Park, the Presidio, etc.). But I don't think I have ever seen a course like Sahalee. The trees are close, the trees are thick and the trees are tall. The trees cast shadows just about everywhere.

Who has played it? Is it a tight as it looks on TV? Does the turf ever get any sunlight?

DT
« Last Edit: June 21, 2024, 10:10:49 PM by David_Tepper »

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2024, 10:06:44 PM »
   The course looks ridiculous on tv. Although tv tends to exaggerate chutes (the 18th at Augusta looked impossible to me until I saw it in person), Sahalee appears way over the top.

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2024, 10:29:31 PM »
This is interesting. My friends that are members are so excited to have the world see Sahalee after all the tree removal that has happened since the last major played there.  They are very proud of the progress.  ::)

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2024, 06:16:10 AM »
I have played Sahalee.  The trees are the primary hazard but so be it as not all courses can or should be treeless links.  These big trees are what is native to area and present a different challenge to the golfers.  There is more room to play than it looks on TV (similar to the discussions with have about courses like Harbour Town).  The trees at Sahalee are just huge and you don’t go over many if any of them.  You go around or under.  Accuracy will definitely be tested but so will many other skills.  My favorite courses are mostly links but I loved playing here.  Varied playing fields is the beauty of golf. 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2024, 05:32:10 PM by Mark_Fine »

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2024, 06:36:32 AM »
When people describe a golf course as "unique" my standard of comparison/degree is Sahalee.
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Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

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Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2024, 09:49:41 AM »
I played a round with a father/son from the NW two years ago.
The logo on their bags was familiar but I couldn't identify it immediately.
The kid (maybe 16) was masterful off the tee.

Sahalee members. Neither had seen such open playing spaces.

P.S. What a great round.







jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2024, 10:03:29 AM »
I have played Sahalee.  The trees are the primary hazard but so be it as not all courses can or should be treeless links.  These big trees are what is native to area and present a different challenge to the golfers.  There is more room to play than it looks on TV (similar to the discussions with have about courses like Harbour Town).  The trees at Sahalee are just huge and you don’t go over many of any of them.  You go around or under.  Accuracy will definitely be tested but so will many other skills.  My favorite courses are mostly links but I loved playing here.  Varied playing fields is the beauty of golf.


+1 +1 +1 +1
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2024, 03:23:14 PM »
I enjoyed Sahalee with my pal Rich Choi several years ago. The architecture is a sign of the times,  but it is high on the Walk In The Park criterion based on the natural serenity and beauty as well as a routing that highlights the rolling site.  The epic scale of the trees makes the corridors appear more narrow than they are, but make no doubt there is little if any width to speak of.  I don’t recall spending much time in the trees but when there the trees were uplimbed to provide a reasonable recovery. 


The holes were solid with none spectacular and I don’t recall much internal movement on the greens. 


Overall, a “should see”  course for you Archie’s.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2024, 03:26:23 PM by Mike Hendren »
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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2024, 03:58:20 PM »
Nothing prepares you for the size of the trees. It is an amazing place to play.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

DFarron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2024, 05:02:01 PM »
I’ve found myself drawn to this course, it looks so serene and green and very Pacific Northwestish

Charles Lund

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2024, 01:49:35 AM »
I played Sahalee for the first time in 1978, a few years after it opened.   I played it again maybe five times in the early 1980s and again in 2012.  I've been out there watching the Sahalee Players Championship a couple of times.


The course is now close to 50 years old and the fir, cedar, and hemlock trees have grown substantially taller.  I can't speak to the amount of tree removal that has occurred. It's always felt claustrophobic but the increased height of the trees contributes to a heightened sense of narrowness.


Many of the more highly regarded courses in this area have similar forestation as part of the landscape along with a lot of elevation changes.  A course near where I live opened not long after Sahalee, initially with 18 holes and was highly regarded in the late 70s and early 80s.  Pacific Northwest courses west of the Cascades for the most part were built around second growth forest.  The classic courses here like Seattle Golf and Country Club or Inglewood Golf and Country Club or Royal Oaks near Vancouver, Washingtion or Eugene Country Club in Oregon have a character that goes with the terrain and native trees which grow very tall.


Capilano in Vancouver, B.C. has similar issues with very tall trees but most fairways seem to have good width.  When I played it in 2017, I played with two members who had worked in the timber industry and they had a good understanding of the challenges these trees pose as far as hindering ventilation and increasing shade that interferes with healthy grass.


A more modern course here, Gold Mountain Olympic, was built on watershed land with second growth forest or later and opened about 25 years ago.  There was objectively good width for fairways but the taller the trees get, the narrower it looks.  They do some periodic tree removal and plants some larger fast growing firs separating the 17th and 18th hole after the U.W. coach instructed his players to hit tee shots into the 17th fairway to get a better angle into the 18th green on the short par four 18th.


These kinds of courses are what we live with around this part of the state, with the exception of Chambers Bay, which was constructed from an eyesore quarry near the Tacoma Narrows Bridge.


As another observation about Sahalee, it became a large residential community and there are other considerations related to tree removal that related to homeowners.  The original members included a group of people who left Inglewood and believed the area needed a new private club. 


Eastern Washington offers Gamble Sands and Wine Valley as stark contrasts to what is on this side of the state.


Charles Lund

DFarron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2024, 08:31:19 AM »
...and then there's Sahalee. :)

Having played a lot of golf in the SF Bay Area over the past 45 years, I have played a lot of tree-lined golf (Olympic Lake, Harding Park, the Presidio, etc.). But I don't think I have ever seen a course like Sahalee. The trees are close, the trees are thick and the trees are tall. The trees cast shadows just about everywhere.

Who has played it? Is it a tight as it looks on TV? Does the turf ever get any sunlight?

DT


David I think that what makes the tree lined courses of No Cal so good is that the trees are so far off the fairway that you really have to hit a bad shot to be in them.


I spent most of my younger life in Ohio/Michigan, most of the tree lined courses in those states the trees are so close to the fairway that they can hamper a decent tee shot or approach..


For some reason I am attracted to Sahalee by the sheer beauty of the trees. To me it screams “Pacific Northwest “ and it has motivated me to make a trip there to play.


That being said we’ll see how much I liked it if I spay a few drives into the trees and fire a smooth 90 lol!

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2024, 08:40:56 AM »
I've always been infatuated with Sahalee because it's just so different. It's honestly probably a top 10ish "would like to play" course for me on that basis.


Charles' post gets at a big question I've had... Is Sahalee truly unique, or is it fairly representative of golf in the far Pacific Northwest? It looks like nothing I've ever seen, but it sounds like there might be quite a few courses in its neighborhood that present similarly.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

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cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2024, 10:11:35 AM »
I played it, enjoyed it very much. For the most par, left my driver in the back, used 3 wood off the tee to keep it in the fairway.


I liked the look, although not something I would like as my home course, too penal especially if you try to do too much, but so is Pinehurst #2 and I would NEVER want to have that as my home course, way way too penal.



Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Charles Lund

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2024, 11:26:31 AM »
Let me add a few comments about Pacific Northwest golf courses, referring mostly to Western Washington and Oregon but also to British Columbia.


1.  If you do a Wikipedia review of Chandler Egan and Vernon Macan, you will find a large number of projects in which they were involved.
2.  Old photos of many of the courses indicate courses were constructed after clear cutting of old growth cedar, fir, and hemlock forests in the early 1900s or in some instances what appeared to be pasture land. 
3.  The area around Sahalee on the Sammamish Plateau in the early 1960s was a developing second growth forest.  Natural reforestation is inevitable but some areas may have been replanted after being logged.
4.  I played Inglewood and Fircrest in 1962 and both were tree lined. On some of the holes on Fircrest trees had been planted to create more separation and better hole definition.  Inglewood at that time was densely reforested.  About twenty years later, Inglewood did some logging to raise funds and resulting high winds in the next couple of years contributed to more blowdown and uprooting if trees.  By that time the trees at Fircrest had grown much taller.
5.  Inglewood and Fircrest have recently undertaken significant tree removal but holes are mostly tree lined.
6.  Both inglewood and Fircrest  hosted PGA events in the early 1960s.  Seattle Golf Club hosted the Walker Cup in the early 60s in which Jack Nicklaus and Deane Beaman participated.
7. These courses and the others where Vernon Macan and Chandler Egan did work defined what was considered desirable at the time and probably influenced how Ted Robinson approached design. 
8.  Louis Schmidt who had built Indian Canyon in Spokane was involved in building Sahalee and was the first superintendent and greenskeeper until 1977.
9.  In the mid-70s when Sahalee opened, it served as one of quite a few courses in the state that defined what many considered best quality.
10.  Port Ludlow Golf Course near where I live was built around the same time as Sahalee.  Robert Muir Graves designed the 18 holes that opened at that time.  Dick Schmidt, son of Louis Schmidt, was involved in the construction of the course and was the first superintendent.  It was among the top five in the state at that time, along with Seattle Golf Club, Royal Oaks, and Fircrest.  They later added another nine holes which is now closed, on land that afforded spectacular views but was problematic from other perspectives.


People may think of Sahalee as truly unique, looking at it on TV and not having much experience playing golf in these parts.  It was definitely an extension of what was deemed quality golf course in these parts at the time it opened and pushed the boundaries in a way that made it special.  And it has origins in the work of Chandler Egan and Vernon Macan.


Golf Club Atlas doesn't cover this area much and I understand the affinity for courses like Gamble Sands and Wine Valley in the Eastern half of the state where the terrain, climate, and native vegetation is quite different. 


The trees present many challenges requiring intelligent tree management - easier said than done.


Charles Lund












Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2024, 12:30:14 PM »
Many on this site love minimalist courses.  They love courses where the natural topography and native vegetation are the predominant actors.  So why would an architect building a course in the Northwest with majestic Douglas fir, red cedar and hemlock trees clear cut the place when these are the predominant actors?  We have links courses and parkland courses and moorland courses and heathland courses and desert courses and mountain courses,…How lucky we are as golfers to experience golf on so many different landscapes.  Trees can be a great hazard and not all of them should just be “lining the sides” of the fairways.  This is no different than having all the bunkers located on the sides of the playing corridors.  Don’t most of us enjoy centerline hazards?  What is wrong with an occasional tree that needs to be played over or around or under once in a while? 

Golf has evolved to mostly an aerial game.  It might seem counterintuitive but sometimes trees force lower old fashion ground game” shots more so than bunkers.  You don’t play through bunkers on the ground, you play over or around them.  But many times with trees, the shot required is a low running draw or fade under them.  Shot making variety, what a great design concept ;)

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2024, 05:41:58 PM »
1) What’s the drainage like at Sahalee?
2) Has the course changed much since Vijay Singh won the 1998 PGA there?
Atb

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2024, 07:05:42 PM »
Do the pines block as much of the greens on a few holes as it looks on TV. I think the caddie wanted her to lay up so the ball couldn’t get stuck in the pine covering the left side of the green on 18.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2024, 08:49:35 PM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2024, 07:49:55 PM »
Why clear cut?  Logging and fishing was THE economy in the PNW for 150 years.  So, why not clear cut.  It's what we do...or did.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2024, 08:02:17 PM »
1) What’s the drainage like at Sahalee?
2) Has the course changed much since Vijay Singh won the 1998 PGA there?
Atb


Drainage is as best as it can be. They do a good job keeping it in line. That said, it’s the similar to all Seattle area courses except maybe for Aldarra and Chambers. It gets squishy after lots after the rain.  That’s part of the experience in the PNW. Same in Eugene, Portland or Vancouver.


Yes, the course has changed since 1998. It’s tighter now. The trees not only get taller, they get fatter. Limbs intrude. That’s nature. You work your way around them and learn to drive it straighter than train smoke or you suffer.



MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2024, 01:42:30 PM »
Many on this site love minimalist courses.  They love courses where the natural topography and native vegetation are the predominant actors.  So why would an architect building a course in the Northwest with majestic Douglas fir, red cedar and hemlock trees clear cut the place when these are the predominant actors?  We have links courses and parkland courses and moorland courses and heathland courses and desert courses and mountain courses,…How lucky we are as golfers to experience golf on so many different landscapes.  Trees can be a great hazard and not all of them should just be “lining the sides” of the fairways.  This is no different than having all the bunkers located on the sides of the playing corridors.  Don’t most of us enjoy centerline hazards?  What is wrong with an occasional tree that needs to be played over or around or under once in a while? 

Golf has evolved to mostly an aerial game.  It might seem counterintuitive but sometimes trees force lower old fashion ground game” shots more so than bunkers.  You don’t play through bunkers on the ground, you play over or around them.  But many times with trees, the shot required is a low running draw or fade under them.  Shot making variety, what a great design concept ;)


+1
As I was reading the thread I had exactly the same thoughts. Folks in all geographies can have passion for golf and deserve to have golf courses in their areas. Good golf can exist everywhere. Would love to play it.

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2024, 02:22:32 PM »
I played it a while back and found it a fun and different challenge than what I'm used to.  It's awe inspiring how massive the trees are.  Happy to have experienced it, though it's not a place i would elect to join and play every day.


the golf course is certainly as narrow as the TV coverage made it out to be. 


Mark
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Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There are tree-lined courses......
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2024, 09:51:12 AM »
New article by Toby Ingleton on Rees Jones' tree removal and bunker work at Sahalee:  https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/sahalee-cc-out-of-the-woods


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