[Ben Stephens]

Sean




Do you think whether it is possible/scope to combine 15 and 16 into a short par 4? the temporary par 3 could become part of the layout.


'There is no such thing as a perfect design'




Cheers
Ben

[Niall C]

Ben


It probably could make a good shortish par 4 if you looked at it in isolation, however it is a fairly congested part of the course and the short holes, ie. 8, 15 and 16, help bring a degree of focus to where people play from and where they play to which is important for safety. If the 15th and 16th became the one hole it would encourage a lot of players to take a mighty swipe from the tee and a lot of time bringing anyone playing down the 8th into play.


Of course you could shorten the 8th and place the tee on the hillside to the right and turn it into a long par 3. That might help a bit but I doubt it would be fool proof for the bombers playing the new 15th. You'd also lose the lovely transition from 7th green to 8th tee, the way they did moving the 5th tee up onto the top of the dune. And at the end of the day 2 par 3's and a short par 4 would be replaced by 2 par 3's and a short par 4.


Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Re 15th-16th - the 1896 routing plan posted above shows a hole running from approximately the current 15th tee across the current 8th fairway to a greensite located approximately where the current 17th tee is. The plan says this hole was 350 yds.
This photo is also interesting in this respect (even though it's of a later vintage) as it highlights the type of rough terrain the original 350 yrd hole mentioned above would have had to traverse including crossing the burn which runs into sea and the high dune with steps. Not the easiest of terrain to play across given todays clubs and balls let alone with back in time with hickories and yee olde era balls while wearing a jacket and tie! I can imagine why the 350 yrd hole was abandoned and the current par-3 16th introduced by Tom Simpson.

atb

[Thomas Dai]

Re 18th hole - do you have any photos from the new 18th tee that show the view of the changes made to the adjacent 1st hole of the St Olaf course?
atb

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,


Are you suggesting that Cruden Bay is of the same quality as Royal Aberdeen?  I like Cruden Bay a lot, and haven't seen the new 9th but that strikes me as an extraordinary stretcH?

[ward peyronnin]

Mark
The outward nine of RA has long been acknowledged to be as strong as any but the inward nine fails to inspire IMO: a basically one direction routing and similarity of holes for instance and the inescapable fact that one aligns off a trio of ugly brutalist hi rise housing  towers all the way home.

  On that basis alone I would ask you to elaborate on why Sean's statement is such a stretch

[Ben Sims]

Just how tight are the fairways at RA? It’s a major concern for a great course I’d imagine.

[Mark Pearce]

Mark
The outward nine of RA has long been acknowledged to be as strong as any but the inward nine fails to inspire IMO: a basically one direction routing and similarity of holes for instance and the inescapable fact that one aligns off a trio of ugly brutalist hi rise housing  towers all the way home.

  On that basis alone I would ask you to elaborate on why Sean's statement is such a stretch

Ward,


The back 9 at RA is a really good run of holes.  On any other course they would be highly rated.  They are as good as either 9 at CB.  It's just that they're not as good as RA's world class front 9.  CB has a world class run of holes from 3-8, and some genuine interest elsewhere but 1 and 2 are average, 10 is OK, 14 a lesser version of Goswick's 14th and 15 is just a bad hole.  It's a lovely, fun course but isn't, as a whole, on a level with NBWL or Elie and doesn't come close to RA.

[Sean_A]

Mark
The outward nine of RA has long been acknowledged to be as strong as any but the inward nine fails to inspire IMO: a basically one direction routing and similarity of holes for instance and the inescapable fact that one aligns off a trio of ugly brutalist hi rise housing  towers all the way home.

  On that basis alone I would ask you to elaborate on why Sean's statement is such a stretch

Ward,


The back 9 at RA is a really good run of holes.  On any other course they would be highly rated.  They are as good as either 9 at CB.  It's just that they're not as good as RA's world class front 9.  CB has a world class run of holes from 3-8, and some genuine interest elsewhere but 1 and 2 are average, 10 is OK, 14 a lesser version of Goswick's 14th and 15 is just a bad hole.  It's a lovely, fun course but isn't, as a whole, on a level with NBWL or Elie and doesn't come close to RA.

I guess I don’t think as highly of RA front 9 as most. For me, CB is absolutely in the class of RA. The par 4s alone at CB are a better bunch than RA. Same for the 5s.

Ciao

[Ira Fishman]

Mark
The outward nine of RA has long been acknowledged to be as strong as any but the inward nine fails to inspire IMO: a basically one direction routing and similarity of holes for instance and the inescapable fact that one aligns off a trio of ugly brutalist hi rise housing  towers all the way home.

  On that basis alone I would ask you to elaborate on why Sean's statement is such a stretch

Ward,


The back 9 at RA is a really good run of holes.  On any other course they would be highly rated.  They are as good as either 9 at CB.  It's just that they're not as good as RA's world class front 9.  CB has a world class run of holes from 3-8, and some genuine interest elsewhere but 1 and 2 are average, 10 is OK, 14 a lesser version of Goswick's 14th and 15 is just a bad hole.  It's a lovely, fun course but isn't, as a whole, on a level with NBWL or Elie and doesn't come close to RA.

I am with Mark on this one although I did not mind 15 at CB. The stretch Mark mentions plus number 9 is great, but 10-12 felt awkward. I actually thought the back at RA was terrific, especially 16-18. CB strikes some very high notes but was not as consistent or coherent as RA (or NB and Elie).


Ira

[Bernie Bell]

Quite a difference in the vibe between CB and RA, in my limited experience.  Apart from architecture, strictly speaking.

[Sean_A]

Sean

Do you think whether it is possible/scope to combine 15 and 16 into a short par 4? the temporary par 3 could become part of the layout.

'There is no such thing as a perfect design'

Cheers
Ben

Wouldn’t that require some fairly serious shaping to create a fairway?

Ciao

[Ira Fishman]

Quite a difference in the vibe between CB and RA, in my limited experience.  Apart from architecture, strictly speaking.

RA could not have been more welcoming. I was a one ball. They let me off on the first Visitors tee time, and the group of members in front insisted that I play through. The head pro gave me and tour and they were happy to have my wife join me for mid morning bite. Yes, more formal than CB but still great.

[Ben Stephens]

Sean

Do you think whether it is possible/scope to combine 15 and 16 into a short par 4? the temporary par 3 could become part of the layout.

'There is no such thing as a perfect design'

Cheers
Ben

Wouldn’t that require some fairly serious shaping to create a fairway?

Ciao

in theory yes (I am not familiar with CB) however I am looking at the bigger picture would it make it a better course overall?

[Sean_A]

Sean

Do you think whether it is possible/scope to combine 15 and 16 into a short par 4? the temporary par 3 could become part of the layout.

'There is no such thing as a perfect design'

Cheers
Ben

Wouldn’t that require some fairly serious shaping to create a fairway?

Ciao

in theory yes (I am not familiar with CB) however I am looking at the bigger picture would it make it a better course overall?

Ben

I think the course could very well be better using the new short hole and combining 15&16. I never played the new short hole so I don’t know how good it is. However, a few issues come to mind. First, so far as I understand it the 15th is an OTM/ A Simpson hole. I sure wouldn’t want to be the person who who makes it NLE. Second, I wonder about the danger with the neighbouring 8th? Finally, reshaping such cool land seems like overkill.

I don’t like 15, but so what? Moving the tee forward largely eliminates why I dislike the hole. I would like to know what T Simpson thought of the hole. Why did he keep it in play?  I am not keen to destroy work from a man such as OTM, especially if T Simpson didn’t do so.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean


There's no Old Tom at Cruden Bay. He provided a routing in 1894 and then in 1896 Archie Simpson was asked to provide one and the railway company went with Archie's routing with a few tweaks. Basically Old Toms layout was never built/laid out/implemented from what I can see. Archie then supervised the construction and laying out of the course. The plan that David posted and that he got from Melvin came from a local tourist guide that came out in 1896 and is Simpsons layout.


Archie came back a little later to make further changes ahead of the 1899 professional tournament. There is some evidence that Braid was asked for input following that tournament. At the tail end of 1899 the railway company hired Weir as pro/greenkeeper and he made a number of changes as he went along, including laying out the 9 hole course. Tom Simpson offered some unsolicited design advice at the tail end of 1901 which the company had costed but there is no evidence (that I can find) to say what was proposed and whether it was implemented. That appears to be his first involvement at Cruden Bay.


Weir then left for Turnberry c.1906 and was replaced by Andrew Simpson. Simpson clearly didn't get on with the club secretary and left after a couple of years. It doesn't appear that many, if any, changes were done in his time. John McAndrew then replaced him and the changes kicked off again. It's not clear at this point what changes are McAndrew and which are Tom Simpson but I think we can safely assume that the new 17th green from 1909 was Simpson. What propelled a lot of these changes was the effect that the haskell ball was having on courses.


McAndrew eventually left to go back to Glasgow c.1923 from memory. Before then the course was revamped over the winter of 1920/21 including the new 9 hole course. In the open amateur competition they used a composite routing of the two but it's not clear whether that was intended to be a permanent switch before they had second thoughts or whether it was just an interim measure while they redesigned the holes on the main course. The Fowler Simpson plan you posted is dated 1921 and more or less shows the current routing which suggests it might have been an interim measure. As an aside, Marion Hollins played in the 1921 open amateur comp. [size=78%]McAndrew received credit for designing the current 4th and 11th hole par 3's, and if that is true then logically it would follow he was responsible for the 3rd and the 5th as well ? Or did Simpson do the routing and let McAndrew do the green design(s) for those particular holes ?  [/size]


Simpson had a long association with Cruden Bay which started in 1901 and lasted until his death in the 1960's during which time he was club captain, officiated and played in the annual open amateur tournament on a number of occasions, donated the Simpson Gold medal for play during the tournament, and eventually became Honorary President of the club in 1961. During that time he made a number of changes on the course.


The club history book credits the work to Simpson and Fowler and dates the redesign to 1926 but it was all Simpson in conjunction with others above and was done over a number of years culminating in more or less the course we know now by 1922. So no Old Tom and no Fowler.


With regards the 15th green, it may well be the only Archie Simpson green remaining that's untouched and I suppose has a bit of old world lay of the land charm but I can't say it is particularly a good hole. Is it worth preserving ? Possibly not.


Niall   

[Thomas Dai]

Thank you for the above Niall. Nicely summarised.
I recall attempting to read-up on the history many decades ago and getting confused by the references to a few different Simpsons!
Here's a film of CBGC taken prior to WW1 - https://movingimage.nls.uk/film/3007 - the golf bits start at approx the 4 min mark.
atb

[Niall C]

David


Thanks for posting the link to Pathe News Reel. I think I've suggested this before but does anyone else think the tall man, grey suit and black hat, coming out of the hotel at 4.44min in the film looks like WH Fowler ? He certainly looks tall enough.


The tournament in question is the 1914 Professional Tournament when Vardon beat Duncan in the final. At the 6 minute mark, the green they are on was what was then the 3rd green with the hole playing approx the same line as the 8th on todays St Olaf's course. The hole was 430 yards long. Indeed the current 4th tee on main course to the current St Olaf's green is about the right distance.


The picture from behind the 8th green is interesting because it shows the green before it was significantly lowered. What also is interesting is the 16th green complex which can be seen in the distance, with the timber shoring along the left edge and large bunker front and right.


Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Good points Niall.
Interesting to compare the 1896 routing with the 1914 video. In particular I’ve attempted to identify the building in the background at 5’30” in the film as this would help determine the green in views location so far but without success. Maybe the building isn’t there anymore?
Atb

[Marty Bonnar]

The hotel really was quite something, wasn’t it!
Any ideas why Vardon is wearing a black armband?
Cheers,
F.

[Michael Tamburrini]

Good points Niall.
Interesting to compare the 1896 routing with the 1914 video. In particular I’ve attempted to identify the building in the background at 5’30” in the film as this would help determine the green in views location so far but without success. Maybe the building isn’t there anymore?
Atb

Yeah, I've been staring at that image and getting nowhere with it. The dunes look like those to the left of 5, 6 and 7 but there's no building near that direction. The green looks a bit like the 7th, although the rise to the green isn't steep enough and the dunes feel like they are in the wrong place.

Sorry, that was a long winded way of me saying that I'm stumped too. But I feel like it's a rabbit hole that I'll go down properly at some point.


I wanted to add (to be contrary to the thread) - the 15th is my favourite par 3 ever. Yes, it's blind. But it's not really. I know you can't see the green, but you've already seen it twice (when you played 8 and when you stood on the 9th tee). You know exactly where the flag is. The green is also pretty big and a bit of a bowl, so anything left, right or short (within reason) will kick onto the green. And it usually plays downwind - it rarely plays any more than 150 yards so it's not any more than a solid mid-to-short iron for most.


Without the big dune (and if you could see the green) it would be a nothing par 3, without any bunkers and without any particular defense. The dune turns an easy shot into a psychological battle, as you try to persuade yourself that it's not a difficult shot.


Plus, you're nearly on the beach as you stand on the tee. It's a great spot.


Also, I loved the old 18th tee shot - it was one of the best on the course. The fairway was split with the high side giving a great line and view to the green, but being close to the out of bounds. The right hand side would leave you a partly-blind second that always played more annoying than it should be. And the burn was always lurking for shorter hitter or if you got too casual off the tee. I'm sad it's gone (although the new tee could be better - it'll be a long time before I'm over to see it).


I'd love to see the 19th at the end of the course replace 11 (I feel like the 11th green strays too close to 13).

[Thomas Dai]

Interesting post Michael. Your thoughts echo mine, ie I like the 15th, replace the 11th with the ‘new’ par-3 at the far end, previous 18th tee location had merit (angles, different fairway levels etc).
As to the green and the building in the background in the old film, curiosity continues even when reviewing the 1896 routing plan.
Atb

[Sean_A]

Interesting post Michael. Your thoughts echo mine, ie I like the 15th, replace the 11th with the ‘new’ par-3 at the far end, previous 18th tee location had merit (angles, different fairway levels etc).
As to the green and the building in the background in the old film, curiosity continues even when reviewing the 1896 routing plan.
Atb

For mine the 12th is the best short CB has. How does it work to add the new short hole and drop 11? What is the hole sequence?

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

For mine the 12th is the best short CB has. How does it work to add the new short hole and drop 11? What is the hole sequence?
Ciao

Seems to be some confusion here.
The 12th isn’t a short hole, it’s a par-4.
It’s the 11th that’s the short hole par-3.
The revised routing would thus be - current 10th, current 12th, ‘new’ par-3 at the end of the course (current ‘19th’ as Michael describes it above) then current 13th.
The current 12th could then be played from near the current 11th tee, ie the playing line being behind the green shed and closer to the OB fence line. This would be similar to how the hole is shown in the 1896 routing plan).
Atb

[Sean_A]

For mine the 12th is the best short CB has. How does it work to add the new short hole and drop 11? What is the hole sequence?
Ciao

Seems to be some confusion here.
The 12th isn’t a short hole, it’s a par-4.
It’s the 11th that’s the short hole par-3.
The revised routing would thus be - current 10th, current 12th, ‘new’ par-3 at the end of the course (current ‘19th’ as Michael describes it above) then current 13th.
The current 12th could then be played from near the current 11th tee, ie the playing line being behind the green shed and closer to the OB fence line. This would be similar to how the hole is shown in the 1896 routing plan).
Atb

Sorry, yes, the 11th is the best short hole on the course.

So would the new 11th (current 12th) be a par 3 if the tee is near the current 11th tee?

Ciao

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