[Ira Fishman]

Having finished our sixth and probably final trip to the UK&I, I put together my eclectic for fun.


1. Nairn
2. Royal Aberdeen
3. St. George’s Hill
4. Woking
5. Lahinch
6. The Island Club
7. Golspie
8. Carne Wild Atlantic
9. Cruden Bay
10. Swinley Forest
11. Ballybunion
12. Rosses Point
13. Elie
14. Royal Dornoch
15. North Berwick
16. Baltray
17. TOC
18. Waterville


I think it is pretty balanced although my fondness for quirk does show through. Many of you have played a lot more courses than I have so if you feel like taking the time, it would be good to see your choices.


Holes on different courses I tried to include:


Gleneagles Kings 12 or 17.
Gleneagles Queens 5 or 10
Blairgowrie 16
Fraserburgh 5 or 13
Crail Balcomie 5, 8, or 13
Eden 8
Mulranny 6
Castle Stuart 18
Brora 10 or 18
Kingsbarns 7
Kilspindie 3 or 8
Old Head 4 or 15

[Niall C]

Ira


Good on you for coming up with that list. I'm envious of anyone who can readily remember holes numbers as I usually have to mentally go through a course counting forward from no. 1 or back the ways from no. 18 depending upon roughly where it is on the course. A case in point is Rosses Point, one of my favourite courses, I'm probably going to have to dig out the strokesaver to see what hole's no 12 !


You've picked a few iconic holes including the Road Hole and the Redan. I also see you've gone for the 4th at Woking, which has huge historic significance in terms of developing strategic design, however do you think it's a really great hole ? Hands up, I've only ever walked and haven't played it.


Niall

[Ira Fishman]

Niall,


Thanks. I needed to resort to course guides especially for courses played awhile ago. I ended up with more iconic holes than I expected. Some of that was need to balance out the course. Part of the fun was debating with myself. Lahinch 5 v 6 v 8? NB  2 v 14 v 15? RD 5 v 14? A couple were pretty easy: the Road Hole and Ballybunion 11 although many probably would pick others.


There are some pure personal favorites that certainly many would challenge: The Island Club 6, Golspie 7, Rosses Point 12, and Baltray 16.


Fraserburgh 13 probably was the most difficult to leave off plus Kilspindie 3.


I have played Woking once. It is a great hole although no question its history influenced me. Number 3 may be a better hole.


Ira

[Tim Gallant]

Ira,


Some fine choices in there. I tried this exercise, but with one caveat: the course couldn't feature in the Golf Magazine UK&I Top 100 list Here's where I got to:

• Lundin
• Portsalon
• Iona
• Mulranny
• Golspie
• Painswick
• Dunstanburgh Castle
• Hayling
• Seaton Carew
• Boat of Garten
• Dunaverty
• Luffness
• Minchinhampton (Old)
• Goswick
• Dunbar
• Tandridge
• Kilspindie
• Leven

I'm making my maiden voyage to see Kington and Welshpool in a few weeks, so might come back and revise. What others am I missing from non-Top 100 courses. Calling Clyde Johnson!!

[Tim Gallant]

I made an edit as I realised I had Painswick in there twice! Doh!

[Sean_A]

Ira,

Some fine choices in there. I tried this exercise, but with one caveat: the course couldn't feature in the Golf Magazine UK&I Top 100 list Here's where I got to:

• Lundin
• Portsalon
• Iona
• Mulranny
• Golspie
• Painswick
• Dunstanburgh Castle
• Hayling
• Seaton Carew
• Boat of Garten
• Dunaverty
• Luffness
• Minchinhampton (Old)
• Goswick
• Dunbar
• Tandridge
• Kilspindie
• Leven

I'm making my maiden voyage to see Kington and Welshpool in a few weeks, so might come back and revise. What others am I missing from non-Top 100 courses. Calling Clyde Johnson!!

Tim

Can you post the GM top 100 UK&I list?

Ciao

[Tim Gallant]

Hi Sean,


Here's the complete list: https://golf.com/travel/best-golf-courses-ireland-scotland-england/


However, I've also taken a screenshot so that you don't have to scroll through the entire list:

[Sean_A]

Hi Sean,

Here's the complete list: https://golf.com/travel/best-golf-courses-ireland-scotland-england/

However, I've also taken a screenshot so that you don't have to scroll through the entire list:

Cheers Tim. Unusual list 😎

Ciao

[Tim Gallant]

It came out a few years ago. It was the only one I had to hand, so thought it was best to go off that list!

[Stewart Abramson]

... Rosses Point, one of my favourite courses, I'm probably going to have to dig out the strokesaver to see what hole's no 12 !


Niall

Niall, It's one of my favorite places as well. These may refresh your recollection of #12





County Sligo Rosses Point #12 from tee par 5







County Sligo Rosses Point #12 pitch to green

[Paul Jones]

IMO… Woking 4th hole is okay at best, straight hole with a property fence along the right. The bunkering definitely elevates it and see why people study the bunkering, but still not a great hole. Not a bad hole, but I enjoyed quite a few (maybe 9) other holes at Woking more.

[Adam Lawrence]

The fourth at Woking is an example of how clever design can make a good hole on dull land, but it is pretty dull land. That part of the course is one of the lowest, and therefore wettest parts of the course, which doesn't help (I have always found that Woking gets drier and firmer once you climb the hill in front of the ninth green -- it's not a big climb, but it makes a definite difference to drainage). If the strategy of the central bunker complex is to hold true, it needs to be a lot easier to approach from the right rather than the left of the fairway, and as it is only a short iron, that requires the green to be bone hard, which in my experience, it isn't often. The other issue is the effect of increased driving distance: there are _a lot_ of golfers who can now just happily blow their tee ball over the bunker complex, negating the strategy. Behind the tee is the greenkeeping compound, and I do wonder if there is room to sneak in a small wayback tee without causing too many problems, but if it could be done it would be a small one and therefore not suitable for large scale use.

[Thomas Dai]

The other issue is the effect of increased driving distance: there are _a lot_ of golfers who can now just happily blow their tee ball over the bunker complex, negating the strategy.

Can’t comment on the 4th at Woking but this seems to be the case with other holes akin to it like the 16th at TOC, at least from what’s been shown on TV.
Plus the modern day 460cc Driver when coupled with the modern era ball usually travels a lot straighter than balata with persimmon. Rather sad.
Atb

[Michael Felton]

The fourth at Woking is an example of how clever design can make a good hole on dull land, but it is pretty dull land. That part of the course is one of the lowest, and therefore wettest parts of the course, which doesn't help (I have always found that Woking gets drier and firmer once you climb the hill in front of the ninth green -- it's not a big climb, but it makes a definite difference to drainage). If the strategy of the central bunker complex is to hold true, it needs to be a lot easier to approach from the right rather than the left of the fairway, and as it is only a short iron, that requires the green to be bone hard, which in my experience, it isn't often. The other issue is the effect of increased driving distance: there are _a lot_ of golfers who can now just happily blow their tee ball over the bunker complex, negating the strategy. Behind the tee is the greenkeeping compound, and I do wonder if there is room to sneak in a small wayback tee without causing too many problems, but if it could be done it would be a small one and therefore not suitable for large scale use.

I looked at the hole today on google maps. I have played it, but that was about 25 years ago and I don't remember it. On google maps, it looks like from half way between the bunker and the green, there is about 20 yards on the right hand side that is available where you don't have to hit your second shot over the bunker if the flag is in the middle of the green. That's not a whole lot of room with OB right. I for one can't keep my driver in a 20 yard wide gap more than maybe 30% of the time. So driver means 70% of the time leaving myself a short wedge shot from short grass that's wet (by the sound of things). That's basically kryptonite for me at least. Not an easy shot at all. I'd be better off hitting a 4 iron or so that lays up to the bunkers and leaves me a full wedge/9 iron into the green. I certainly don't think the hole is devoid of strategy just because the bunkers are clearable.

[James Boon]

With apologies to Ira for continuing the 4th at Woking discussion... its quite common in other areas of art and design, that some of the ground breaking or innovative things that are done, eventually dont really stand up to scrutiny. Ideas and philosophies are developed and refined beyond the early adopters or innovators, but that doesnt take anything away from them in my mind! The 4th at Woking might not be a great hole viewed through our eyes today, but it did somewhat open everyone's eyes to what was possible back then, and so is certainly worthy of inclusion in Ira's eclectic 18 I'd say.
I'll try and find the time to do my own eclectic list at some point to get the thread back on track! 

Cheers,
James

[Ira Fishman]

James,


Certainly no apologies necessary. The main purpose of an eclectic is to prompt discussion about the holes.


I am a bit surprised of the iconic holes I chose that the Dell has not generated more controversy.


I look forward to your eclectic.


Ira

[Tony_Muldoon]

Need Bob Crosby for the last word on Woking's 4th.  ive always wondered if todsy there's less fairway to the left of the bunkers? Doesn't seem like left is the ssfe play....

Aplaud the thread and my head is spinning trying to come up with mine. I also like Tim's idea of picking the less well known courses.  Mulrany gets two holes mentioned...not bad for a nine holer!

[Adam Lawrence]

Need Bob Crosby for the last word on Woking's 4th.  ive always wondered if todsy there's less fairway to the left of the bunkers? Doesn't seem like left is the ssfe play....

I think that’s veery likely, just because of tree growth, though the last couple of times I have been there, I have understood that the club is pretty determined to address that[size=78%] issue all accross [/size][/size][size=78%]the course.[/size]

[Sean_A]

Need Bob Crosby for the last word on Woking's 4th.  ive always wondered if todsy there's less fairway to the left of the bunkers? Doesn't seem like left is the ssfe play....

I think that’s veery likely, just because of tree growth, though the last couple of times I have been there, I have understood that the club is pretty determined to address that[size=78%] issue all accross [/size][size=78%]the course.[/size]

Left isn't really the safe play. THey stuck a bunker out that way a few years ago and that seaction of the fairway wasn't overly wide anyway. Plus, the approach from that angle is dreadful. I think short of the bunkers is the safe play.

Still, 4 is a great hole....I thought so even when I could blow a drive over the sand.

Ciao

[Ira Fishman]

Need Bob Crosby for the last word on Woking's 4th.  ive always wondered if todsy there's less fairway to the left of the bunkers? Doesn't seem like left is the ssfe play....

Aplaud the thread and my head is spinning trying to come up with mine. I also like Tim's idea of picking the less well known courses.  Mulrany gets two holes mentioned...not bad for a nine holer!

When I chose a round at Mulranny, I was skeptical that it was just a gca fad. That skepticism was dispelled quickly. What a well thought out use of some great land. Number 9 was a bit over the top, bet certainly a memorable cap (pun intended) to the round. I picked 6 in part because the wind was blowing hard across so I had the fun of aiming out over the water—almost pulled it off.

[Niall C]

The thing about the 4th at Woking is the unforgiving straightline boundary formed by the railway. Irrespective of the bunker there is still the temptation or desire to go straight at the green, and a possible/likely calamity of landing on the tracks. The bunkers just make it harder to hedge your bets. Again saying that as someone who has never played it.


Stuart


Thanks for reminding me of the 12th at Rosses Point. A fine hole but not necessarily the first one I'd have picked on that course. Also a bit surprised at Ira's claimed short hitting that he picked a long hole but then I guess maybe going for a standard number of par 5's ?


Niall

[Ira Fishman]

Niall,


Yes, I did decide to choose 4 par 5s, but 12 at Rosses Point requires three good shots. The second in particular seemed for me as if I was hitting off the end of the earth.


I thought long and hard about numbers 6, 8, and 9 at Rosses Point, but chose three of my personal favorites. I also quite liked 17 because it is different. As you know, the course is chock full of good holes, and I am hard pressed to name a weak one.


Ira

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