Misinformation about Seminole

[Hal Hicks]

So there’s no plan to return 3 and 18 greens to the original Donald Ross locations?

Mark,


    I don't think #3 or #18 green will ever be moved but would never be surprised after all the changes the last 8 years
at Seminole.

Let me venture a guess...new "leadership" was installed about 10 years ago?

Correct. 

[Rich Milligan]

Here are the original Ross green plans from the tufts archives.


OB002281 - Sketch

[Hal Hicks]

Here are the original Ross green plans from the tufts archives.


OB002281 - Sketch

Rich,


    Awesome!  Thank you for posting this!  These are exactly the original drawings and plans from Donald Ross! It does
not means the greens were built in 1929 to his exact specifications but it does show that the drawings are not even
remotely close to the existing greens and bunkering at Seminole.  Thanks again for the discussion.

[Mark_Fine]

Hal,
Great point about the drawings.  They are excellent to have but just because you have them, doesn’t mean things were built as drawn.  Drawings need to be backed up with photos and old aerials if you can find them and confirmation from soil probes etc.  Most golden age drawing are conceptual not as builts.

[Hal Hicks]

Hal,
Great point about the drawings.  They are excellent to have but just because you have them, doesn’t mean things were built as drawn.  Drawings need to be backed up with photos and old aerials if you can find them and confirmation from soil probes etc.  Most golden age drawing are conceptual not as builts.

Mark,


     I agree with you and said as much in my previous post to Rich.  But my point is if Donald Ross took the time to make detailed
drawings of the greens and greenside bunkers logic would tell me that the final product "somewhat" resembled his drawings.  At
the very least his drawings although possibly modified during construction is in vast contrast to the existing green surfaces and greenside bunkers at Seminole.  Even Seminole admitted to such in the Story of Seminole book. I agree without pictures (of which there are none to prove) it is hard to make undeniable comments. But the Ross drawings and notes are pretty specific on that much we should be able to agree.

[Connor Lewis]

Hal,
Great point about the drawings.  They are excellent to have but just because you have them, doesn’t mean things were built as drawn.  Drawings need to be backed up with photos and old aerials if you can find them and confirmation from soil probes etc.  Most golden age drawing are conceptual not as builts.

Mark,


     I agree with you and said as much in my previous post to Rich.  But my point is if Donald Ross took the time to make detailed
drawings of the greens and greenside bunkers logic would tell me that the final product "somewhat" resembled his drawings.  At
the very least his drawings although possibly modified during construction is in vast contrast to the existing green surfaces and greenside bunkers at Seminole.  Even Seminole admitted to such in the Story of Seminole book. I agree without pictures (of which there are none to prove) it is hard to make undeniable comments. But the Ross drawings and notes are pretty specific on that much we should be able to agree.

—-


I too have been getting information from members at Seminole. The craziest thing I have heard was that they plan on raising the course 4 feet. I heard that from two sources, but a third source said the course would be raised but not that much. If you think about the pro shop - raising it 2 feet might creat a situation where you have to walk down to the pro shop.


My understanding is that Gil and team will not Lidar the entire course to recreate all the subtle changes in the fairway, but he and his team will make note of those subtle changes.


The renovation will last two years and will begin at the end of this season (May). 


The blown out bunkers that were established by Coore & Crenshaw will disappear. While I have loved playing the course, many of the members hate the walk through the sand to reach the green.


The last comment I heard was a look of “parkland” and one member mentioned an emphasis on green (as in color) aesthetics like ANGC.


I for one, think the C&C restoration of Seminole was and is fantastic. I don’t have enough information to make an real comments going off of hearsay. However the words “parkland” and “green” are a tad worrisome when I think of Seminole, but again we only have pieces of information.

[Chris Hughes]

Hal,
Great point about the drawings.  They are excellent to have but just because you have them, doesn’t mean things were built as drawn.  Drawings need to be backed up with photos and old aerials if you can find them and confirmation from soil probes etc.  Most golden age drawing are conceptual not as builts.

Mark,


     I agree with you and said as much in my previous post to Rich.  But my point is if Donald Ross took the time to make detailed
drawings of the greens and greenside bunkers logic would tell me that the final product "somewhat" resembled his drawings.  At
the very least his drawings although possibly modified during construction is in vast contrast to the existing green surfaces and greenside bunkers at Seminole.  Even Seminole admitted to such in the Story of Seminole book. I agree without pictures (of which there are none to prove) it is hard to make undeniable comments. But the Ross drawings and notes are pretty specific on that much we should be able to agree.

—-


I too have been getting information from members at Seminole. The craziest thing I have heard was that they plan on raising the course 4 feet.


...again we only have pieces of information.

Think about that...

...does it make any sense, at all?

[Hal Hicks]

Hal,
Great point about the drawings.  They are excellent to have but just because you have them, doesn’t mean things were built as drawn.  Drawings need to be backed up with photos and old aerials if you can find them and confirmation from soil probes etc.  Most golden age drawing are conceptual not as builts.

Mark,


     I agree with you and said as much in my previous post to Rich.  But my point is if Donald Ross took the time to make detailed
drawings of the greens and greenside bunkers logic would tell me that the final product "somewhat" resembled his drawings.  At
the very least his drawings although possibly modified during construction is in vast contrast to the existing green surfaces and greenside bunkers at Seminole.  Even Seminole admitted to such in the Story of Seminole book. I agree without pictures (of which there are none to prove) it is hard to make undeniable comments. But the Ross drawings and notes are pretty specific on that much we should be able to agree.

—-


I too have been getting information from members at Seminole. The craziest thing I have heard was that they plan on raising the course 4 feet. I heard that from two sources, but a third source said the course would be raised but not that much. If you think about the pro shop - raising it 2 feet might creat a situation where you have to walk down to the pro shop.


My understanding is that Gil and team will not Lidar the entire course to recreate all the subtle changes in the fairway, but he and his team will make note of those subtle changes.


The renovation will last two years and will begin at the end of this season (May). 


The blown out bunkers that were established by Coore & Crenshaw will disappear. While I have loved playing the course, many of the members hate the walk through the sand to reach the green.


The last comment I heard was a look of “parkland” and one member mentioned an emphasis on green (as in color) aesthetics like ANGC.


I for one, think the C&C restoration of Seminole was and is fantastic. I don’t have enough information to make an real comments going off of hearsay. However the words “parkland” and “green” are a tad worrisome when I think of Seminole, but again we only have pieces of information.

Conner,


    You are correct on all your points.  These are some of the same points I have been discussing.  About five years ago Seminole
got a new green chairman and the maintenance meld as many call it changed quite a bit.  The course has moved in a period of
very high maintenance in every aspect including the sand dunes.  Accordingly, the maintenance budget has increased dramatically.
Today Seminole looks more like Jupiter Hills than the previous years of Seminole with its unkept natural dunes and ragged edged
bunkers in line with a links style course.  The membership has changed quite a bit with not nearly as many low handicap members as in years past.  But think of the ripple effect from raising the entire bottom of the golf course 2 feet or 4 feet.  All the bunkers have to be renovated, irrigation has to be replaced from a brand-new system installed only 6 years ago, new grassing, and on and on.  Accordingly, many of the members just don't understand the need.  It's like one member of Seminole is famously quoted as saying when hearing another member complain---he said to the complaining member "it must have been ok when you joined---or you wouldn't have joined the club".  Truer words have never been spoken. LOL!

[Chris Hughes]

Hal,
Great point about the drawings.  They are excellent to have but just because you have them, doesn’t mean things were built as drawn.  Drawings need to be backed up with photos and old aerials if you can find them and confirmation from soil probes etc.  Most golden age drawing are conceptual not as builts.

Mark,


     I agree with you and said as much in my previous post to Rich.  But my point is if Donald Ross took the time to make detailed
drawings of the greens and greenside bunkers logic would tell me that the final product "somewhat" resembled his drawings.  At
the very least his drawings although possibly modified during construction is in vast contrast to the existing green surfaces and greenside bunkers at Seminole.  Even Seminole admitted to such in the Story of Seminole book. I agree without pictures (of which there are none to prove) it is hard to make undeniable comments. But the Ross drawings and notes are pretty specific on that much we should be able to agree.

—-


I too have been getting information from members at Seminole. The craziest thing I have heard was that they plan on raising the course 4 feet. I heard that from two sources, but a third source said the course would be raised but not that much. If you think about the pro shop - raising it 2 feet might creat a situation where you have to walk down to the pro shop.


My understanding is that Gil and team will not Lidar the entire course to recreate all the subtle changes in the fairway, but he and his team will make note of those subtle changes.


The renovation will last two years and will begin at the end of this season (May). 


The blown out bunkers that were established by Coore & Crenshaw will disappear. While I have loved playing the course, many of the members hate the walk through the sand to reach the green.


The last comment I heard was a look of “parkland” and one member mentioned an emphasis on green (as in color) aesthetics like ANGC.


I for one, think the C&C restoration of Seminole was and is fantastic. I don’t have enough information to make an real comments going off of hearsay. However the words “parkland” and “green” are a tad worrisome when I think of Seminole, but again we only have pieces of information.

Conner,


    You are correct on all your points.  These are some of the same points I have been discussing.  About five years ago Seminole
got a new green chairman and the maintenance meld as many call it changed quite a bit.  The course has moved in a period of
very high maintenance in every aspect including the sand dunes.  Accordingly, the maintenance budget has increased dramatically.
Today Seminole looks more like Jupiter Hills than the previous years of Seminole with its unkept natural dunes and ragged edged
bunkers in line with a links style course.  The membership has changed quite a bit with not nearly as many low handicap members as in years past.  But think of the ripple effect from raising the entire bottom of the golf course 2 feet or 4 feet.  All the bunkers have to be renovated, irrigation has to be replaced from a brand-new system installed only 6 years ago, new grassing, and on and on.  Accordingly, many of the members just don't understand the need.  It's like one member of Seminole is famously quoted as saying when hearing another member complain---he said to the complaining member "it must have been ok when you joined---or you wouldn't have joined the club".  Truer words have never been spoken. LOL!

To your point highlighted above (from a friend):



The other story relates to a friend of mine from Tulsa, OK who joined Seminole 30 years ago.
 
In the first few days that he was a member, an old member approached him and said:
 
"I understand that you're a new member.  Why did you join Seminole ?"
 
My friend went on to list the reasons.  The old member then replied:
 
"So you joined Seminole because you loved everything about it, just the way it is.
Please make sure that you preserve "The" Seminole that you wanted to join and please don't make any attempts to change it."
 
Too often today, new members want to change the club just a few years into their membership.