[mike_malone]

Society of Golf Historians showed a photo (compliments of Royal Troon Archives) of a massive bunker on Troon that was filled in before the ‘23 Open. My trip to Southport a couple of years ago left me with the impression that Lytham and Liverpool weren’t as quirky as the other Lancashire courses we played. Deal intrigues me more than Sandwich.


  Are there other examples of removing quirk from the Rota courses?

[Tom_Doak]

Quirk is irrelevant if your ball is flying eighty feet over the top of it. 

[mike_malone]

Thank goodness for TOC and number 4 at Sandwich.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Society of Golf Historians showed a photo (compliments of Royal Troon Archives) of a massive bunker on Troon that was filled in before the ‘23 Open. My trip to Southport a couple of years ago left me with the impression that Lytham and Liverpool weren’t as quirky as the other Lancashire courses we played. Deal intrigues me more than Sandwich.


  Are there other examples of removing quirk from the Rota courses?

Removing quirk does not necessarily equal dumbing down. Variety does not need to be quirky.


The problem is the other one you imply - homogenisation.


What massive bunker in Troon was recently filled in? I didn’t notice.

[Kalen Braley]

Thank goodness for TOC and number 4 at Sandwich.

While not dumbed down per se TOC has become obsolete.  The last Open played there 10 guys finished at -12 or better, and the top 3 were -18, -19, -20.  It was basically the Bob Hope Open.

[mike_malone]

 1923 Open

[Ally Mcintosh]

1923 Open

Ah…. That’ll be why.

[Thomas Dai]

Quirk is irrelevant if your ball is flying eighty feet over the top of it.

Bingo!
Expanded irrigated areas too.
Atb

[Simon Barrington]

In this case the "Quirk" was Penal, and Strategic was all the vogue in 1923 (something most agree with, even now).


So James Braid (who contrary to others competitive assertions, was strategic in his designs) removed the large bunker in front of the 7th ("Tel-el-Kebir") Green, while also adding some 67 bunkers across the course.


He also slightly reduced the course's total yardage (I believe uniquely for an Open course, Open-to-Open) including shortening "Ailsa" now known as "The Postage Stamp" courtesy of earlier reference from Willie Park Jnr. on Willie Fernie's original longer one-shotter (c.1909)


I have previously quoted on another thread the Willie Fernie's positive opinion of the subtle increase in strategy over distance that resulted, which ironically 101 years later Bryson Dechambeau repeated in his presser yesterday!...

[Sean_A]

Thank goodness for TOC and number 4 at Sandwich.

While not dumbed down per se TOC has become obsolete.  The last Open played there 10 guys finished at -12 or better, and the top 3 were -18, -19, -20.  It was basically the Bob Hope Open.

You forgot to mention that Open was highly entertaining.


Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Thank goodness for TOC and number 4 at Sandwich.

While not dumbed down per se TOC has become obsolete.  The last Open played there 10 guys finished at -12 or better, and the top 3 were -18, -19, -20.  It was basically the Bob Hope Open.

You forgot to mention that Open was highly entertaining.

Ciao

Good point Sean, it certainly was.

I also think we need more par 3 closers on Tour! 

[Bruce Katona]

I'm excited to watch the potential for high scores on The Postage Stamp.  Per the forecast, there may be a bit of rain & wind on Thursday, a breeze on Friday, some rain on Saturday & a glorious sunny end on Sunday - but its Scotland and things change.


I loved watching Rick Shiels, Guy Charnock & Jame Robinson (who played in The Open) play the Troon.  On The Postage Stamp, there were two easy pars and a double by Mr. Sheils who took two to get out of the front bunker.


The rough was a bit patchy when they palyed and likely is a bit thicker.........so sure if the fairways are F&F.

[mike_malone]

The Postage Stamp has enough cache to hold off finagling. Thank God. The fact that it is the highlight of the coverage proves my point.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I'm excited to watch the potential for high scores on The Postage Stamp.  Per the forecast, there may be a bit of rain & wind on Thursday, a breeze on Friday, some rain on Saturday & a glorious sunny end on Sunday - but its Scotland and things change.


I loved watching Rick Shiels, Guy Charnock & Jame Robinson (who played in The Open) play the Troon.  On The Postage Stamp, there were two easy pars and a double by Mr. Sheils who took two to get out of the front bunker.


The rough was a bit patchy when they palyed and likely is a bit thicker.........so sure if the fairways are F&F.

When Mr Shield name comes up in conversation, it is generally agreed that he's a nice guy with a vanity handicap.

[Sean_A]

Quirk is irrelevant if your ball is flying eighty feet over the top of it.

An awful lot of golfers aren’t able to do this. So we have a double pinching argument to get rid of cool features. It doesn’t matter fir pros and it’s too hard for rabbits. It’s no wonder courses have become homogenised and codified. And yes, that does mean less variety which is the worst thing for golf architecture.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Quirk is irrelevant if your ball is flying eighty feet over the top of it.

An awful lot of golfers aren’t able to do this. So we have a double pinching argument to get rid of cool features. It doesn’t matter for pros and it’s too hard for rabbits. It’s no wonder courses have become homogenised and codified. And yes, that does mean less variety which is the worst thing for golf architecture.

Sean:


This thread was about Open courses, of which there are 8 or 9, and my comment was in that context.  Royal Troon’s point of pride is being on the rota and they have prioritized their decisions with that in mind.


The stupid bit are the many other courses which follow the same mindset even though they exist only for the pleasure of members and visitors.  I am a big fan of quirk but the two courses I’ve built that host tournaments have the least amount of it, for reasons.

[Sean_A]

Quirk is irrelevant if your ball is flying eighty feet over the top of it.

An awful lot of golfers aren’t able to do this. So we have a double pinching argument to get rid of cool features. It doesn’t matter for pros and it’s too hard for rabbits. It’s no wonder courses have become homogenised and codified. And yes, that does mean less variety which is the worst thing for golf architecture.

Sean:

This thread was about Open courses, of which there are 8 or 9, and my comment was in that context.  Royal Troon’s point of pride is being on the rota and they have prioritized their decisions with that in mind.

The stupid bit are the many other courses which follow the same mindset even though they exist only for the pleasure of members and visitors.  I am a big fan of quirk but the two courses I’ve built that host tournaments have the least amount of it, for reasons.

Open courses may serve two masters, but they exist primarily independent of the Open. It’s just a shame most of the decision making regarding alterations are based on Open play. The vast majority of the time the changes matter little for pros unless it’s about narrowing fairways and growing harsh rough. They go low when conditions permit it. The architecture doesn’t stop low scores.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Open courses may serve two masters, but they exist primarily independent of the Open. It’s just a shame most of the decision making regarding alterations are based on Open play. The vast majority of the time the changes matter little for pros unless it’s about narrowing fairways and growing harsh rough. They go low when conditions permit it. The architecture doesn’t stop low scores.

The only piece of that I'd disagree with is that those courses exist primarily independent of The Open.  They've all let the R & A come in and tell them what to do, and they all lie down and do exactly what's recommended, because the members would die of embarrassment if their course fell off the rota.  That's why I have never sought out consulting work on tournament courses . . . because I would prioritize what's right for the membership, but the membership would reverse it all in a heartbeat to host another championship.

[Kalen Braley]

10 at Troon has always looked to be a spectacular hole, (as I've only seen it in pics or on the telly).

Does it play that way or is it more in the eye-candy category?

[Niall C]

Kalen


The 10th at Troon is a terrific hole however in normal day to day play the tee tends to be in the far corner of the property so that the hole plays as a left to right dog-leg with the fairway visible from the tee. The fairway basically comprises two sections with the first section being a bit lower than the upper section with the green.


The approach to the green is a challenge as there is a steep fall off to the right and gorse to the back and left of the green.


From the championship tee, which is much closer to the 9th green, the drive is over the large bunker that was reinstated for the 2016 Open and provides a heroic carry. Played from that tee the hole is more a right to left and also a terrific hole.


Niall 

[Kalen Braley]

Niall,

Thanks for the commentary.

It also looks like the "pro" line over the bunker has a few tee boxes at 20 and 40 yards closer so the everyday joe can get the occasional taste of that tee shot even if not often.

P.S.  That ridge-line looks much taller on the tube, but according to Google Earth the top of it is only ~20 feet higher than tee level from the tips.

[Simon Barrington]

The Postage Stamp has enough cache to hold off finagling. Thank God. The fact that it is the highlight of the coverage proves my point.

The 8th Hole (then called "Ailsa") was "finalgled" ahead of The Open in 1923, fortunately James Braid did such a great job "finalgling"(which is such agreat word BTW) Willie Fernie's 1909 Hole no more was required over the next 101 years!

[Kyle Harris]

Thank goodness for TOC and number 4 at Sandwich.

You say this when quirk has been removed from the TOC in the past decade.

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