[Rob Marshall]

Question for the handicap guys.


I have 4 scores out of my 20 that have a PCC -1. The course apparently played easy. I was under the impression that if the scores were high there could be an adjustment due to weather or something like that. I would think that if you have a bunch of -1 days your course is probably rated harder than it is. Does that make sense? I play 4 times a week so it's not like my 20 rounds are spanning a 3 months.


In talking to my pro we had one day when only 17 scores were posted in May and there was a PCC-1 adjustment.


That would mean that if guys are raking 4-5 footers they could potentially effect every ones handicap??

[Rob Marshall]

18 of my 20 scores are at my home club. Of the 18 scores, 5 have a -PCC adjustment. Over the last few years we have taken out a lot of trees and I think the course plays easier. Does anyone thing that the PCC adjustment would be an indicator that we need to be re-rated?

[Tyler Kearns]

Rob,


I know golf courses in my home province are rated every 5 years, unless changes are made and the course requests a new rating.  Do you know when you course was last rated?


Tyler

[Rob Marshall]

Rob,


I know golf courses in my home province are rated every 5 years, unless changes are made and the course requests a new rating.  Do you know when you course was last rated?


Tyler

5 years ago when we completed a bunker renovation. We have taken a lot of trees out since but I've read that trees don't play a huge roll in the rating. I've always thought it was rated harder than it plays. I looked at my scores from 2023 and only found 1 PCC on the days I played.

[Jason Topp]

I more often see a plus adjustment on days the course hosts a tournament.  I suspect that conceded four footers and hitting two off the first tee on normal days may account for the difference. 

[A.G._Crockett]

My opinion, based only on my experience with PCC adjustments.




Almost every + PCC adjustment I’ve seen has come in tournament play.  Not all, but most.  I think there are numerous reasons for that, and I’m sure that we can all figure those out pretty easily.




Minus adjustments have been much more rare events, though they seem to have become a bit more frequent in 2024; I currently have two among my 20 scores, both on my home course and both in “casual” rounds.




I think it’s at least possible that minus adjustments might have to do with summer?  I’d attribute this mostly to the ball flying farther, and rolling out more on firm turf so that the course plays shorter, and maybe MUCH shorter. I’m 20-30 yds longer off the tee right now than I am most of the rest of the year.  Hitting two or three less clubs into greens on par 4s and 5s makes a huge difference; more GIRs, better misses, etc.  Add to that longer days and more practice, and lower scores follow.




As an aside, in CGA interclub competitions, you play off your 12 month low index.  It turns out that almost everyone has their 12 month low in the late summer or early fall.  Probably not coincidence…




So not really a course rating issue; rather it’s perhaps a different golf course than the one that was rated.  And that WILL change when the weather gets cooler and the course gets softer.

[Brian Finn]

I would think that if you have a bunch of -1 days your course is probably rated harder than it is. Does that make sense?

4 out of my last 5 rounds at my (now former) home course had -1 PCC adjustments.  Most believe the course and slope rating are well above where they should be. 

[David Royer]

The USGA site explains the PCC process.  It only takes 8 scores posted each day to potentially invoke PCC.  The site does not explain the variance required to invoke PCC.  I’ve seen both sides of PCC on a given day.  In my view it helps avoid quirky outliers on a given day.
I do course ratings for my golf association.  It’s important to remember that distance is biggest factor to ratings.  90%+/-   Trees and proximity to the fairway is only one factor we rate.  There are many other factors we examine.  The biggest misnomer is the understanding of stroke rating and slope.  The site does a good job explaining how it works. 

[Pete Lavallee]

We rarely see a PCC here in SD. We played Torrey South in a cloud in May, the marine layer was that low. Barely 50 yards of visibility, no roll and the ball traveled well short of normal. We had 3 groups so 12 players posted scores. Yet there was no PCC for that day?!  Is it automatic or is the Club responsible for making the decision?

[John Kavanaugh]

A new tool for the sophisticated sandbagger.

[Ira Fishman]

A new tool for the sophisticated sandbagger.

JK,


I for one have missed you on here. Welcome back.


Ira

[Rob Marshall]

“I think it’s at least possible that minus adjustments might have to do with summer?  I’d attribute this mostly to the ball flying farther, and rolling out more on firm turf so that the course plays shorter, and maybe MUCH shorter. I’m 20-30 yds longer off the tee right now than I am most of the rest of the year.  Hitting two or three less clubs into greens on par 4s and 5s makes a huge difference; more GIRs, better misses, etc.  Add to that longer days and more practice, and lower scores follow.“

Makes perfect sense AG accept we’ve had a ton of rain and the course is actually playing long. Where it’s is really strange is that there are no positive adjustments. If you’ve played in the northeast in the spring you know it’s cold, windy, and the rough is brutal. Yet no positive adjustments.

I think its that the course is rated harder than it is. Only thing that really makes sense to me.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

The USGA site explains the PCC process.  It only takes 8 scores posted each day to potentially invoke PCC.

When only 8 scores are posted, they have to be WAY out of whack with the expected.

[Rob Marshall]

The USGA site explains the PCC process.  It only takes 8 scores posted each day to potentially invoke PCC.

When only 8 scores are posted, they have to be WAY out of whack with the expected.

We had a round in May where only 12 rounds were posted and there was an adjustment

[Erik J. Barzeski]

When only 8 scores are posted, they have to be WAY out of whack with the expected.

We had a round in May where only 12 rounds were posted and there was an adjustment

12 > 8.

[Rob Marshall]

When only 8 scores are posted, they have to be WAY out of whack with the expected.

We had a round in May where only 12 rounds were posted and there was an adjustment

12 > 8.

Just stating that we had an adjustment with very few rounds posted. So they must have been WAY out of whack with the expected.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Just stating that we had an adjustment with very few rounds posted. So they must have been WAY out of whack with the expected.

That's how it works, yep.

[Chris Hughes]

A new tool for the sophisticated sandbagger.

BINGO 




The new "World Handicap System" is rife with pitfalls and untoward anomalies that work against the honest golfer -- and in the favor of the sandbagger...


...the most egregious being the purported handicap anti-abuse mechanism known as the soft/hard-cap...


...which is a complete screwjob to those who might wear tennis shoes, or an occasional python boot......

[A.G._Crockett]

The idea that the PCC and the soft/hard cap mechanisms are tools for sandbaggers is, of course, utter nonsense.

[Rob Marshall]

The idea that the PCC and the soft/hard cap mechanisms are tools for sandbaggers is, of course, utter nonsense.

I’m not saying that AG.


Yesterday was a -1 PCC also. 6 of my 8 scores being used are adjusted. In the spring when the rough was brutal and it was cold there were no positive adjustments. I checked my scores from 2023 and only found one - adjustment. I sent an email to the USGA handicap section.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

The idea that the PCC and the soft/hard cap mechanisms are tools for sandbaggers is, of course, utter nonsense.

Bingo. If you have to categorize them, the hard/soft caps are anti-sandbagging measures.

If the "honest" golfer is playing so badly that their cap is going up 3.6 strokes when it should have gone up 4.8 without a cap… then I might argue they don't much deserve to win a net competition.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Of the last 20 scores I posted, 8 have a -1 adjustment. This has been pretty consistent since the system came into effect. Our recent “restoration” has changed 4 things - removed 15% of our bunkers, widened fairways, flattened a few greens, and removed pretty much every internal tree that didn’t define a dogleg - all of which one would think made the course easier.
  I asked our pro about all these -1 adjustments. He said, in his experience, almost every course has experienced these negative adjustments, and that they are not an indication of how hard the course is. It seems all the responses here refer to a preponderance of -1 adjustments. Why?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I asked our pro about all these -1 adjustments. He said, in his experience, almost every course has experienced these negative adjustments, and that they are not an indication of how hard the course is. It seems all the responses here refer to a preponderance -1 adjustments. Why?

Your pro's suggestion does not align with the data I have. I have a +1 and nothing else in 10 scores in 2024. Looking at a semi-random selection of golfers in my club…

• SK has 20 scores without any PCCs. (He did have an Exceptional Score correction after firing a 76 among some 92s)
• MD has 20 scores without any PCCs.
• JM has 17 scores with one -1 PCC (and no others).
• JD has 20 with zero.
• DR has 20 with zero.
• RC has 10 with zero.
• DL has 17 with zero.

That sample of data aligns with what I see overall in a report of all golfers in the club. Maybe your pro was just trying to deflect attention away. I suggest you talk with your AGA about having the course re-rated given your renovation.

[Rob Marshall]

   Of the last 20 scores I posted, 8 have a -1 adjustment. This has been pretty consistent since the system came into effect. Our recent “restoration” has changed 3 things - removed 15% of our bunkers, widened fairways, flattened a few greens, and removed pretty much every internal tree that didn’t define a dogleg - all of which one would think made the course easier.
  I asked our pro about all these -1 adjustments. He said, in his experience, almost every course has experienced these negative adjustments, and that they are not an indication of how hard the course is. It seems all the responses here refer to a preponderance -1 adjustments. Why?

Jim,
Cindy from the USGA looked at my club and surrounding clubs and said the prior months all look very similar from club to club. IN the prior months I only had one adjustment. I emailed her back and asked her to look at the surrounding clubs and mine just for the month of July. In the last 3 weeks I have 6 scores with a -1. In all of 2023 I only found 1. I'll let you know what I hear back from her.


Was your course rerated?

[Jim_Coleman]

 Rob: Not yet.

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