[Erik J. Barzeski]

I'm sorry for ever starting this threat. And to people in the know the pot calling the kettle black has not gone unnoticed.

Ha ha ha. Whatever you've gotta tell yourself, Chief.

[Chris Hughes]

Res ipsa loquitur...

[Jim_Coleman]

   It seems to me that, if a course is rated properly, there should be very few PCC adjustments. Adjustments should only occur when external conditions cause scores to be unusually high or low. And, i would expect that there should be more +1 than -1 adjustments, as bad weather should be the most common variable that would affect scoring. The variables that would make a course unusually easy would likely involve maintenance variables - low rough, slow greens. etc.
   So, the fact that there seem to be more -1 than +1 adjustments tells me courses tend to be rated too high. That is certainly true for my course.
   

[Chris Hughes]

Now that the fallacy of the farcical "anti-abuse" mechanism known as the soft/hard-cap has been properly vetted and put to bed...

...where did this PCC hoax originate? 


Was this being done by the R&A (and/or RoW) prior to them conning the USGA into obliterating their comprehensive, finely tuned, and perfectly functional handicapping system?

[A.G._Crockett]

   It seems to me that, if a course is rated properly, there should be very few PCC adjustments. Adjustments should only occur when external conditions cause scores to be unusually high or low. And, i would expect that there should be more +1 than -1 adjustments, as bad weather should be the most common variable that would affect scoring. The variables that would make a course unusually easy would likely involve maintenance variables - low rough, slow greens. etc.
   So, the fact that there seem to be more -1 than +1 adjustments tells me courses tend to be rated too high. That is certainly true for my course.
 

Jim,


Out of curiosity, why do you think your course is rated too high? 


As to PCC’s, I’ve written this many times, but BY FAR the preponderance of PCC’s that I’ve seen in my posted scores are +1, 2, or even 3, and almost all of them have come in tournament rounds, regardless of the weather.  For instance, I don’t think I’ve ever played a competitive round at either Mid Pines or Pine Needles (usually 2 rounds on each course each year) that didn’t have a + PCC, and often it’s a +3.  One of the guys in the CGA office told me that those two courses and Tobacco Road have the most PCC adjustments of any courses in the Carolinas.


I have no trouble understanding why tournament rounds get the most + PCC’s; lots of golfers playing an unfamiliar course at the same time, many without the benefit of a practice round, and some without ever having played the course at all.  Going back two full years, with well over 50 tournament rounds, I have yet to see a minus PCC in a tournament round.


This year, I have seen more minus PCC’s in casual play. Last year I had ONE minus PCC all year out of 157 posted rounds; this year I’ve already had 6 minus PCC’s out of 115 posted rounds YTD.  All but one were on my home course.  The + PCC’s are happening at just about the same pace as in prior years.


I play year round, including in the cold and in the rain, and I don’t think weather has very much impact on this at all; otherwise, I’d see plus PCC’s clustered in the winter, and that’s not the case.  The course conditions aspect is a little bit murkier to me; I’d have to study my scores a lot more closely than I’m inclined to to make a semi-educated guess at that.

[Jim_Coleman]

A.G.:  I have believed for years that RG’s course rating has been too high. We compete very poorly against other clubs; members who go south for the winter return with higher handicaps; and personally, when I was a 6 I never believed I was that good.
  Now that we have removed pretty much all internal trees, removed 15% of our bunkers, widened fairways, and flattened greens, it has only gotten easier. The excessive number of PCC -1’s and dearth of +1’s has only objectively confirmed what most already knew.
   Don’t get me wrong. Rolling Green is a wonderful golf course. I believe Tom Doak rated it a 6 or 7 on his scale, and the rating is deserved. It just isn’t as hard as the raters have reported, maybe because it’s quite intimidating on first visit. 🤷‍♂️
   

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G.:  I have believed for years that RG’s course rating has been too high. We compete very poorly against other clubs; members who go south for the winter return with higher handicaps; and personally, when I was a 6 I never believed I was that good.
  Now that we have removed pretty much all internal trees, removed 15% of our bunkers, widened fairways, and flattened greens, it has only gotten easier. The excessive number of PCC -1’s and dearth of +1’s has only objectively confirmed what most already knew.
   Don’t get me wrong. Rolling Green is a wonderful golf course. I believe Tom Doak rated it a 6 or 7 on his scale, and the rating is deserved. It just isn’t as hard as the raters have reported, maybe because it’s quite intimidating on first visit. 🤷‍♂️

 

Thanks for the explanation.


I was curious because I’ve heard this at several places I’ve been a member, including my current club; some guys I play with are quite insistent about it.  When I try to explain to them how the rating process actually works, they are almost universally uninterested. 


I have great respect for the course rating process, but since length is the main factor in rating a hole, I DO think it’s possible that older course with wider landing areas might rate at least slightly differently than some newer courses.  That said, we’d only be talking about tenths of a stroke, so that is perhaps not the only thing in play.


Out of further curiosity, does your club hold its own in competitions against other clubs at home, but not on the road, or do you fare poorly in both?  I ask this because the Carolinas Golf Association runs an Interclub competition with 320 teams in three different age groups, with each team playing three home and three away matches each season.  The win percentage by home teams are pretty staggering; I think last year it was approaching 75%.  The home course advantage in golf is so large that playoff matches are held simultaneously at both sites, with two four ball matches each place, and the final four is played on consecutive days at a neutral site. 

[Jim_Coleman]

   A.G.: In Philadelphia, we have 3 inter club weekends each spring, with six players home and six away. I haven’t played in years. When I did, there was definitely a home field advantage, and I assume there still is. Pretty sure this has been true throughout the district.
   For many years, we had matches with Llanerch, a club down the road. RG always got killed. This was often explained as a difference in culture - RG traditionally played better ball matches for regular play; Llanerch reportedly played 2 points a hole. So we took putts that they putted out. Hence, our handicaps didn’t stack up as well. Also, most believed Llanerch was harder (smaller greens, more trees, narrower fairways), yet RG’s rating and slope has been higher.

[A.G._Crockett]

   A.G.: In Philadelphia, we have 3 inter club weekends each spring, with six players home and six away. I haven’t played in years. When I did, there was definitely a home field advantage, and I assume there still is. Pretty sure this has been true throughout the district.
   For many years, we had matches with Llanerch, a club down the road. RG always got killed. This was often explained as a difference in culture - RG traditionally played better ball matches for regular play; Llanerch reportedly played 2 points a hole. So we took putts that they putted out. Hence, our handicaps didn’t stack up as well. Also, most believed Llanerch was harder (smaller greens, more trees, narrower fairways), yet RG’s rating and slope has been higher.

Mark me down as a BIG believer that the competitive culture of a club determines how well they will do in club competitions. I agree with the idea that clubs/players who primarily play individual points games are going to proper when they play against guys where some sort of better ball format is more common. 

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