[Thomas Dai]

Here’s a recently released every hole at Royal Troon YouTube piece by Golf Digest.
Worth a look in view of next weeks Open Championship.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SFHmya9Y9lM&pp=ygULUm95YWwgdHJvb24%3D
Enjoy.
Atb

[John Foley]

Watched it this AM. Also check out Iona Stephens You Tube for a few others. Great stuff!

[Ally Mcintosh]

I said it elsewhere after my latest visit in May… but Royal Troon is significantly underrated.


Usually ranked around 12 or 13 in Scotland, that is 7 or 8 places too low in my opinion.

[Paul Jones]

I agree, Royal Troon exceeded my expectations and I have it in my Top 5 in Scotland.


I am excited to be able to finally attend The Open this year.

[Bill Crane]

Played Prestwick a few years ago with caddie who I believe had been working there most of his adult life.
He was adamant that Troon was over-rated and really just a "one hole golf course".  (!)
Certainly, he was not a disinterested party!
I have not played Troon but would really like to next time in Scotland.

[David_Tepper]

"Every Shot" (41 minutes) of the final round duel at Troon between Stenson & Mickelson from the last Open there. Possibility the best final round at a major since the Watson-Nicklaus "Duel in the Sun" at Turnberry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGOsYXXijk
 

[Jaeger Kovich]

I said it elsewhere after my latest visit in May… but Royal Troon is significantly underrated.


Usually ranked around 12 or 13 in Scotland, that is 7 or 8 places too low in my opinion.

Seriously? The first 4 holes are basically the same and the 5th hole is basically just a par-3 version of the first 4. There are no "world class" holes in the last 5 either, they are just hard. How is this worthy of top 5/6 courses in the home of golf?! ... Of the 20ish courses I've seen in the country I have it nearer the bottom than the top.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I said it elsewhere after my latest visit in May… but Royal Troon is significantly underrated.


Usually ranked around 12 or 13 in Scotland, that is 7 or 8 places too low in my opinion.

Seriously? The first 4 holes are basically the same and the 5th hole is basically just a par-3 version of the first 4. There are no "world class" holes in the last 5 either, they are just hard. How is this worthy of top 5/6 courses in the home of golf?! ... Of the 20ish courses I've seen in the country I have it nearer the bottom than the top.

Yeah seriously. I feel like I plot my way round Troon and fight for every shot.


It is true links golf for me. More so than North Berwick or Prestwick or Cruden Bay.


I love those courses, probably even enjoy playing them more (almost definitely as I continue to get older). But genuinely, do I have to think and execute myself round as much as at Troon? No - I don’t.

[Simon Barrington]

...
I think best to allow Willie Fernie to comment upon the revisions James Braid made for the 1923 Open, those being to the course he himself had remodelled from 1909-1915:-

"The course has been made considerably more difficult, by the addition of 67 new bunkers, and new back tees, which have been planned by James Braid. The course now provides a searching test of the best golf, and calls for extremely accurate play rather than long hitting.

My friend James Braid has been very cunning in placing the new bunkers. At nearly every hole one has to hug either the right or left side of the fairway in order to get into the most favourable position for the approach, and Braid has seen to it, that to reach that position, the player will have to take certain risks from the tee. On the outward journey the course rather favours the man who can hold his drives up from left to right, and coming home the man who plays for a pull....

[Jaeger Kovich]

I said it elsewhere after my latest visit in May… but Royal Troon is significantly underrated.


Usually ranked around 12 or 13 in Scotland, that is 7 or 8 places too low in my opinion.

Seriously? The first 4 holes are basically the same and the 5th hole is basically just a par-3 version of the first 4. There are no "world class" holes in the last 5 either, they are just hard. How is this worthy of top 5/6 courses in the home of golf?! ... Of the 20ish courses I've seen in the country I have it nearer the bottom than the top.

It is true links golf for me. More so than North Berwick or Prestwick or Cruden Bay.

What does this mean?

[Ally Mcintosh]

I explained it in the paragraph that followed, Jaeger. Simon’s quote from Willie Fernie was more of the same.


But I’ll add that the links land at Troon is pretty consistent through the 18 with wonderful turf. All the other three have elements of the course away from the main dune system. If Troon has that at all, it is actually the middle six which are widely seen as the better holes.


For what it’s worth, I named three courses which I love: Given one course for the rest of my life, I’d likely pick North Berwick or Prestwick ahead of Troon (less so Cruden Bay). But do I consider them better courses? No, not really. In fact, North Berwick I’d argue has got way ahead of itself in world ranking lists. I’m sure it is because there are easy touch points there, a little like the reasoning that so many MacRaynor courses are currently excelling.


As for “all world holes”, that concept I usually find overrated as well - many of the supposed “all world holes” are based on setting or cool looking topography that has very little to do with the way the hole is played. Most courses - links anyway - have more interesting holes than the ones that have stereotypically become known as “all world”.

[Thomas Dai]

What wonderfully descriptive words from Willie Fernie as quoted above by Simon.

Atb



“At nearly every hole one has to hug either the right or left side of the fairway in order to get into the most favourable position for the approach, and Braid has seen to it, that to reach that position, the player will have to take certain risks from the tee.”

[Sean_A]

These “best” discussions are always mixed. So much depends on what one values in design etc. I tend to look for unusual holes and this may unduly have me ranking courses higher accordingly. I can accept a few duds for truly great holes. Variety, interesting greens and the walk are also very high on my important list. I am usually not impressed by a string of subtle holes which I can see anywhere. That doesn’t mean a course can’t be great, but the other aspects have more heavy lifting to do as compensation. Troon isn’t close to making my top 5 in Scotland, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t great.


Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean, I’m not too far from your position in general.


But what I think is often times passed over by a lot of people is that repeat plays can start to highlight subtlety and variety in the golf holes. Often times, the holes that wow on first or second appearances are the one trick ponies.


When an album grabs me on first listen, I generally know it’s going to plateau and then sit comfortably back after the 5th or 6th listen. The album that takes more time to learn all the intricacies is the one that plateaus for far longer… which reminds me that I remain an album person, not a hit single person.

[Simon Barrington]

These “best” discussions are always mixed. So much depends on what one values in design etc. I tend to look for unusual holes and this may unduly have me ranking courses higher accordingly. I can accept a few duds for truly great holes. Variety, interesting greens and the walk are also very high on my important list. I am usually not impressed by a string of subtle holes which I can see anywhere. That doesn’t mean a course can’t be great, but the other aspects have more heavy lifting to do as compensation. Troon isn’t close to making my top 5 in Scotland, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t great.


Ciao

Spot on Sean, Beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that.

Courses have highly differing appeals and purposes for different golfers, and GCA'ers, that is the fun and intrigue that creates great debate.

I absolutely get Jaeger's point as when I played Royal Troon (although I find it hard not to refer to it as Old Troon!) for the first time I was a bit underwhelmed, but the weather was benign and it was in 36 Holes of (Foursomes then Singles) Matchplay when I was focused far more on my opponents than the course.

Then having returned to play repeatedly, and subsequently having watched it (at a far higher level than my game) in competitive Strokeplay (incl. The Open) I began to appreciate the subtle challenge and uniqueness as its strength falls at the point that golfers can start to lose their way physically & mentally (mid-round, 7th-11th especially).

I do not critique anyone's personal views, far from it, especially yours and a highly knowledgable eye like Jaeger's.

My wish is to highight the clever and subtle challenge presented, that like a fine wine sometimes it takes time to appreciate the nuanced variety under the surface (think Bobby Jones & TOC).


There is a distinct pressure of expectation we will see at The Open to score low early in the round, as the general received wisdom is that it is an easy start. That in itself creates a particular mental challenge as you often see players chasing a score too hard early and then having to hold on to a "poor" start around the tougher mid-round section.

The latter section is long & tough and often is a grind into the headwind but agree it is not visually dramatic nor entirely memorable on only a few visits.

I have a genuine penchant for fun, quirk, and sporting golf as you evidently do Sean.
However, when I was younger (and a far better player than now) I really appreciated, valued and sought out the brutal competitive challenges of tough uncompromising layouts. Tough can be fun, but only if one prevails and gets through the test.

I put Royal Troon and Carnoustie into that bucket and James Braid was brought in to remodel both, specifically to challenge the very best (post the advent of the Haskell and the early introduction of steel shafts). The fact his remodelling has stood the test of time competitively (with some necessary lengthening, of course due to the Governing bodies abdicating responsibility for equipment) is testament to his (IMHO) under-appreciated skill.

Numerous of Braid's new bunkers have been removed over time, (and I will try and count how many for a later update) for example there were thirteen (yes, 13) around the final green in 1923. Arthur Havers holed out from one and then Walter Hagen visited the same and failed to hole out and so Havers won by a single stroke (apparently watched by the Good Doctor Mackenzie who had just remodelled the Portland or "Relief" course that put paid to Gene Sarazen's qualification earlier in the week.)

I celebrate Braid's remodelling for the Championship (as did Willie Fernie) but also his creativity, innovation, routings on wild topography, and enormous fun created elsewhere on courses we both love and wish to play for enjoyment.

Vive la difference!

[Sean_A]

Sean, I’m not too far from your position in general.

But what I think is often times passed over by a lot of people is that repeat plays can start to highlight subtlety and variety in the golf holes. Often times, the holes that wow on first or second appearances are the one trick ponies.

Ally

I completely agree. More plays equal more data and more chance of more knowledge. But, back to the ole problem, there is only so much time and money for golf. First impressions matter greatly. That said, a recent revisit of Southport & Ainsdale was eye opening. I recall liking Hoylake more and more after several plays.

Simon

Well yes, I play golf for amusement and to see cool architecture. Since I am not a competitive golfer, the difficulty aspect carries little weight for me except in the case of championship courses also being fun and highly playable ala TOC. Unfortunately, many championship courses have been dulled down and codified in the name of championship golf. That concept has a lot to answer for.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Completely agree with Sean on some courses (not always Championship but more so on average) being dulled down and codified - we have to resist that at all costs!


I haven’t seen that evidence at Royal Troon however.

[Brian Finn]

Here’s a recently released every hole at Royal Troon YouTube piece by Golf Digest.
Worth a look in view of next weeks Open Championship.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SFHmya9Y9lM&pp=ygULUm95YWwgdHJvb24%3D
Enjoy.
Atb

I've generally not been a fan of most GD content in recent years, but I have to say this is really well done.  The descriptions of each hole were evocative but still concise.  Iona Stephen's narration was also great.  It got me very excited for next week. 

I really enjoyed Troon, but as a one-time (so far) visitor, it did not initially excite me in the way that neighbors such as Prestwick, Turnberry, and Western Gailes did.  The 7th, 8th, and 11th were most memorable.  However, revisiting the course in discussion with friends, in my own memory, and through videos such as this one, I have come to appreciate it more, particularly certain holes such as 10 and 13. Troon has solid links golf from start to finish, with a special part of land in the middle holes providing more variety and interest, at least for those of us who haven't been around it many times.  I tend to enjoy a good challenge and appreciate that on certain holes, bogey is a good score for me, so the difficulty did not detract from my experience. 

[Simon Barrington]

...
I think best to allow Willie Fernie to comment upon the revisions James Braid made for the 1923 Open, those being to the course he himself had remodelled from 1909-1915:-

"The course has been made considerably more difficult, by the addition of 67 new bunkers, and new back tees, which have been planned by James Braid. The course now provides a searching test of the best golf, and calls for extremely accurate play rather than long hitting.

My friend James Braid has been very cunning in placing the new bunkers. At nearly every hole one has to hug either the right or left side of the fairway in order to get into the most favourable position for the approach, and Braid has seen to it, that to reach that position, the player will have to take certain risks from the tee. On the outward journey the course rather favours the man who can hold his drives up from left to right, and coming home the man who plays for a pull....


Seems that James Braid's changes (with a few recent tweaks from M&E) have stood the test of over 100 years as a strategic for the very best.

2024 US Open Champion Bryson DeChambeau responded about “overpowering” Royal Troon: “I don’t think it’s possible to overpower it. There’s too many hazards around the fairways, even in the bunkers, you’ve got to be very strategic around here. Look, I’ve played well at strategic courses in the past. At RBC Heritage and Valderrama, I’ve had 2 top 10s there. 2nd last year and 9th this year. Those are pretty strategic golf courses and very placement oriented golf courses. So I think I’m pretty solid. But overpowering this golf course I don’t know if it’s possible.”

[mike_malone]

Here’s a recently released every hole at Royal Troon YouTube piece by Golf Digest.
Worth a look in view of next weeks Open Championship.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SFHmya9Y9lM&pp=ygULUm95YWwgdHJvb24%3D
Enjoy.
Atb

I've generally not been a fan of most GD content in recent years, but I have to say this is really well done.  The descriptions of each hole were evocative but still concise.  Iona Stephen's narration was also great.  It got me very excited for next week. 

I really enjoyed Troon, but as a one-time (so far) visitor, it did not initially excite me in the way that neighbors such as Prestwick, Turnberry, and Western Gailes did.  The 7th, 8th, and 11th were most memorable.  However, revisiting the course in discussion with friends, in my own memory, and through videos such as this one, I have come to appreciate it more, particularly certain holes such as 10 and 13. Troon has solid links golf from start to finish, with a special part of land in the middle holes providing more variety and interest, at least for those of us who haven't been around it many times.  I tend to enjoy a good challenge and appreciate that on certain holes, bogey is a good score for me, so the difficulty did not detract from my experience.

Tim Gallant listed as writer.

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