[Michael George]

The hard part is obviously determining the group of architects that are subject to the debate.  I would generally agree that William Flynn was the best American golden age architect, mostly because he was the finest router of golf courses of that time.   I have enjoyed his courses more than those of Thomas, Raynor and Tillinghast, although each of them have special courses in their own right.  Flynn's routings and consistency was just better.   

Of the non-American born architects, it obviously much closer.  I personally have him above Mackenzie and Ross, but I haven't played Mackenzie's work in Australia or Great Britain/Ireland.  Macdonald is very tough for me as he is very special in his own right, but he certainly has less work to compare. 

However, I don't have him above Colt, whose routing skills certainly match Flynn's.

Mike Cirba is correct in Flynn's batting average.  I still have not played a course where I felt the course was not designed very well. There are some that are not maintained well or that have been modified, but his preserved work is usually special. 

Good question - who is a better router of golf courses - Harry Colt, William Flynn or Bill Coore?

[mike_malone]

In the greater Philly area the Ross courses I have played are Aronimink, StDavid’s, Riverton, Schuylkill, Torresdale, Jeffersonville, Gulph Mills , York, and Lulu. That’s a fair representation of Ross I assume. There aren’t any stinkers among them. Torresdale has always been my favorite to play.


I guess the biggest difference I feel is the challenge at the green is more engaging as a whole at the Philly Flynns.

[mike_malone]

For pure aesthetics and difficulty, it's MacKenzie for me. For challenge and playability, Ross. For creativity and uniqueness, George Thomas - even though his is a small sample size. For lasting imprint and design standards, C.B. Macdonald and then Seth Raynor following him (how many template holes and green complexes did he create?) For originality, fun and quirkiness, Old Tom.


Flynn's great in his own right, as are others I left off, i.e. Colt, Alison, Tilly, Park Jr., Langford/Moreau, Maxwell, Thompson, Travis, Watson, Braid etc. but those are my guys and if you made me pick one, it would be George Thomas. I marvel at everything he did in his short time span and only wish he would have done work outside the state of California, as he could have been a monster. Amazing he concocted taking an elevator to tee off a hole. How cool is that? LOL!

My case is that Flynn is in your first paragraph not second.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I've played 19 Flynn courses (original designs) and can understand someone proposing him as the best Golden Age American architect. I love his courses. My favorite architect, however, is Raynor. I know he used templates, and that might disqualify him. I walk off a Raynor course and generally ask, "Can I play it again?"

[Ian Mackenzie]

Perhaps Tom will chime in, but I paste in below some recent comments he had about Flynn:


https://golf.com/travel/underrated-course-designers-tom-doak/




But on the latest episode of GOLF Originals with Michael Bamberger, Doak was asked to name some of his favorite golf course architects of previous generations, including those who may not have gotten the recognition of Dr. Alister MacKenzie, Seth Raynor, C.B. Macdonald or A.W. Tillinghast.
The first name Doak thought of was William Flynn, a Philadelphia-native like Bambeger and our videographer Darren Riehl (and this writer), as Doak points out.
“He was a great architect, built a bunch of stuff, but he was never the most famous golf course architect of the day,” Doak said. “So people now don’t know him.”
Flynn was part of the famous “Philadelphia School” of golf course architecture, which included the likes of Tillinghast, George C. Thomas, George Crump, Hugh Wilson and William Fownes. Many of his top designs are around the Philadelphia area and include Lancaster Country Club, site of this year’s U.S. Women’s Open, Atlantic City Country Club, Cherry Hills Country Club and Shinnecock Hills Golf Club.

[Bill Crane]

Cirba makes good points as always.  Only a couple of duds in the group and even those have some great holes. 
Kittansett is another super fun and really interesting Flynn layout.
I find all the Flynn courses fun and interesting, though some are seriously challenging such as Huntingdon Valley, Lancaster and Rolling Green.
Manufacturers is super fun, very interesting and still challenging but not to the degree of some others.
I also played Pocantico Hills (when it was still being maintained) which was also fun and fascinating - due to the reversible nature of the course.  Incredible site with superlative views of the Hudson river.

[Michael Morandi]

In the greater Philly area the Ross courses I have played are Aronimink, StDavid’s, Riverton, Schuylkill, Torresdale, Jeffersonville, Gulph Mills , York, and Lulu. That’s a fair representation of Ross I assume. There aren’t any stinkers among them. Torresdale has always been my favorite to play.


I guess the biggest difference I feel is the challenge at the green is more engaging as a whole at the Philly Flynns.

You make a great point. My understanding is that Flynn had a big hand in designing the green complexes at Merion. It is also worth noting that few college golfers go low at the Princeton Invitational played at Flynn design Springdale Golf Club, even though it tips out at no more than 6600 yards ( maybe less).

[Ed Brzezowski]

Cirba makes good points as always.  Only a couple of duds in the group and even those have some great holes. 
Kittansett is another super fun and really interesting Flynn layout.
I find all the Flynn courses fun and interesting, though some are seriously challenging such as Huntingdon Valley, Lancaster and Rolling Green.
Manufacturers is super fun, very interesting and still challenging but not to the degree of some others.
I also played Pocantico Hills (when it was still being maintained) which was also fun and fascinating - due to the reversible nature of the course.  Incredible site with superlative views of the Hudson river.

Bill not to stir the pot, to a degree, which of the Flynn courses you reference had the best set of par threes?

[Brian Finn]

Probably a good time to mention for anyone who may not know - The Nature Faker by Wayne Morrison and Tom Paul is a truly comprehensive resource on William Flynn and his many courses.  It is a digital publication, due to the sheer volume (2,500+ pages and likely still growing) that has extensive detail on each of Flynn's courses, including many photos, routing diagrams, and much more. Wayne charges a nominal amount for the book, which all goes toward his research and archival work. It is a must-have for gc architecture enthusiasts, and while many participants here have known about it for years, some newer to the board or gca in general may not be aware. 

[Ed Brzezowski]

Probably a good time to mention for anyone who may not know - The Nature Faker by Wayne Morrison and Tom Paul is a truly comprehensive resource on William Flynn and his many courses.  It is a digital publication, due to the sheer volume (2,500+ pages and likely still growing) that has extensive detail on each of Flynn's courses, including many photos, routing diagrams, and much more. Wayne charges a nominal amount for the book, which all goes toward his research and archival work. It is a must-have for gc architecture enthusiasts, and while many participants here have known about it for years, some newer to the board or gca in general may not be aware.

Or look up the William Flynn Society, recently formed.

[Charlie Goerges]

Long ago I put together a small presentation using the Lehigh plan Flynn did. In this first image, you're just looking at the topo, hopefully you can read it.


Basic RGB by goerges_family, on Flickr




Then I created a second image with the holes. Unfortunately I reversed the colors, so the green arrows represent tee landing areas running along the contours (I think a good thing) Blue arrows represent tee landing areas at somewhat of an angle (also a good thing) to the contours and finally Red arrows represent tee shots going straight into or with the contours (a less ideal proposition)


LehighCCsmall by goerges_family, on Flickr




The idea being that he was very efficient in his routing to minimize straight uphill or downhill tee shots. There was discussion years ago about why this is a good thing, and the architects can probably describe it better than I. Does it help make him the best? I don't know.

[mike_malone]

Great stuff Charlie!


  His tendency to run across the ridge is a powerful part of his greatness. It makes the entire hole a variable challenge. I love 8 and 14 in particular.


 He also didn’t like water as a crossing hazard. So at Lehigh 4,7,11 allow plenty of room to carry and 13 is diagonal.




The cumulative use of his principles is unrelenting.

[Bill Crane]

Cirba makes good points as always.  Only a couple of duds in the group and even those have some great holes. 
Kittansett is another super fun and really interesting Flynn layout.
I find all the Flynn courses fun and interesting, though some are seriously challenging such as Huntingdon Valley, Lancaster and Rolling Green.
Manufacturers is super fun, very interesting and still challenging but not to the degree of some others.
I also played Pocantico Hills (when it was still being maintained) which was also fun and fascinating - due to the reversible nature of the course.  Incredible site with superlative views of the Hudson river.

Bill not to stir the pot, to a degree, which of the Flynn courses you reference had the best set of par threes?

OOoohhh.   
Gotta think about that, almost have to formulate a comparison system.    Kittansett has three excellent par 3s and one very good. Included are the beach Island #3, and #11 with the wild green.  #8 also has an excellent usual green.    The review of Kittansett on this site notes that the two most severe greens on the course are the two longest Par threes (#8 and #11) !!   Counter to current design tenets.   #14 is a very good three, but the least interesting of the bunch. 
To be fair, I am pretty sure that this is one of the few courses that Twomey and Flynn (Flynn's construction entity) did not build.
More to follow. 

[Tim Martin]

I’m interested in what Jim Nagle is able to accomplish at Eagles Mere. I played a few times roughly fifteen years ago and thought it could be really good with some tree clearing and additional restoration. Does anyone know the timeline of his proposed work? Thanks.

[mike_malone]

I forgot to say he builds great mountain courses as well. Eagles Mere isn’t it. Jim Nagle should change that.

[Ira Fishman]

Accepting Mike's Rules of excluding MacKenzie, Colt, Crump, and Wilson but including Macdonald and Ross, I took a look at the Golf Magazine Top 100 in US.


Flynn:


Shinnecock
Kittansett
Cherry Hills


Macdonald:


NGLA
Chicago
Sleepy Hollow
The Creek
Piping Rock
St. Louis


Raynor:


Fishers Island
Chicago
Shoreacres
Camargo
Sleepy Hollow
Yeamans Hall
The Creek
Monterey Dunes


Thomas:


LA North
Riveria
Bel-Air


Ross:


PH2
Oakland Hills
Seminole
Iverness
Oak Hill East
Essex County
Plainfield
Scioto
Aronimink
Glen Falls
Brookside




Tillinghast:


WFW
San Francisco
Somerset Hills
Bethpage Black
Sleepy Hollow
Baltusrol Lower
WFE
Quaker Ridge
Ridgewood
Newport
Baltimore Five Farms


Maxwell:


Prairie Dunes
Crystal Downs
Southern Hills
Old Town


I am not a believer in rankings, but this whole thread is premised on doing a ranking.

[mike_malone]

Thank goodness I based my case on the use of design principles rather than a beauty contest. Looks a little like Biden versus Trump after the debate!!


Conventional thinking would suggest the designer with more on the list is better than the one with fewer but I suggest that Flynn did one of the top courses in the world which puts him in rarefied territory and then has a large group of great courses which could compete with most on that list after the top 10.

[Ira Fishman]

Mike,


My only note in posting is that asserting the GOAT is a very high tightrope with not much of a safety net unless one defines and redefines the criteria to suit one’s desired outcome.


I am quite confident in my list: Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, Edwin Moses, Willie Mays, Simone Biles, Greg Louganis, Hogan, Wright, Pele, and Walter Payton. But many will question my choices. I never would denigrate those who do so.


Ira

[mike_malone]

I thought of starting a topic  “William Flynn was a pretty good golf architect “. 

[Simon Barrington]

I sense another Philadelphia-style homebread discussion here. Must be something about the city that gave us John McDermott and his fidelity to all things Red White Blue.

Establish some ground rules and give a list of architects up for consideration.

########################

       Born In the USA
           George Thomas
           William Flynn

       Emigrated and Stayed
           Donald J. Ross, Jr.
           Walter Travis
           Alister MacKenzie
           
       Came, Saw, Conquered, Left
           Harry Colt
           
########################

Feel free to copy, paste, edit my listing, and move ahead. I'm a non-linear guy, unless there's a competition. Then, I need this.

      Born in a small hamlet called "Liberty", but never set foot in the "Land of the Free"

            James Braid

[Steve Lapper]

Flynn was indeed a wonderful, and often underrated, architect. His body of work was excellent.


Tillinghast was better!

[mike_malone]

Flynn was indeed a wonderful, and often underrated, architect. His body of work was excellent.


Tillinghast was better!

Specifically why?


Steve,


I ask because there are things that Flynn and Tillinghast do differently in my experience that make me favor Flynn. At the green I find that Flynn uses angled bunkers and greens more frequently and usually has an opening. Tillinghast more often encircles the green with bunkers limiting choice. Or Tilly uses bunkers parallel to the green more often which I find puzzling.


At WFW I felt that many green sites were artificially built up while Flynn prefers more natural green locations.


Flynn is often knocked for his simplicity on his parkland courses while Tillinghast is more visually appealing. But I believe that the playability is better at Flynn courses .


Undulating greens appeal to many but I believe that sloping greens are more deceptive and allow for more pins.


These are a few.

[mike_malone]

I would say that Flynn seems to emphasize finding the best routing and play of each hole up to and including the green with the use of the land being the predominant architectural principle.


  I think that most other architects have a look that they want which they will manufacture if necessary and will bulldoze things to get that.


Many architects are fairly conventional in their ideas. Flynn’s constant way of running fairways on the slant of the ridge rather than up and down the hill and his fairway bunker idea that they shouldn’t be penalizers but provide a mode of play appeal more to me than the straight up and down the hill of many designers and the parallel to play bunker placement that seems to be the conventional choice. He required visibility for these bunkers over placing them at a yardage to hinder the player.


  Mind you I’m just an amateur but play many good courses. I preferred Quaker Ridge to any Tillinghast thus far. I love Hollywood and Oakmont as heavily bunkered courses that seem to be the best of their kind even though that’s not my preferred style.


When I play in the British Isles I feel like that those designs are more random than scientific and that’s what I expect to see.


The more I play in the Mid Atlantic part of the US I believe that Flynn was bolder in his simplicity than other designers of his time. The result is courses high on the challenging fun.

[Rory Connaughton]

Mike,


  Hat off to you for stepping out and making the case for Flynn. If there was some personal invective included, this thread could be GCA circa 1999.


 The man was one of the greatest routers in history. Of this there is no doubt. There are many Flynn courses that, it could be argued, are the equal of courses on Ira's Golf top 100 list but as someone with a personal interest, I see a few major impediments to greater appreciation of his work:


(1) other than Shinnecock and Cherry Hills, no courses that are exclusively Flynn have received the cross generational media exposure that comes from hosting repeat majors. Further depressing his exposure, Flynn was robbed of attribution for his greatest triumph at Shinnecock for many years. Likewise, Mill Road Farm was plowed under. Had it survived, perhaps his work in the mid-west would receive the recognition it deserves.


(2) Flynn's relationship with Wilson probably hurts more than it helps because so much of the work can be seen as a continuation of Wilson. You can't go to PCC, Lehigh, Lancaster or Rolling Green and not see the Merion influence. Whether Flynn deserves greater recognition for his contributions at Merion is a different story but in the consciousness of the non-architecture obsessed golf world, its all Wilson;


(3) The work is sophisticated to the extent that its merit is not immediately obvious. Maxwell's greens at Prairie Dunes are amazing and obviously so. Flynn's greens at Rolling Green are equally amazing but you can't tell that simply by looking at them. At first glance, you could argue that Flynn's greens are rudimentary due to the way they blend so well into their surrounds.


(4) Location, if Flynn's best work was spread between New York and San Francisco like AWT's, it would have received greater exposure over the decades. When so much of the Philly work is overshadowed in the national eye by MGC, PV and AGC and two of his other noteworthy courses are in Lancaster and Allentown, it's easy to see how his work gets overlooked.


(5) Flynn was working class. As great as he was, he wasn't a member of the club in the way that the other Philadelphia School architects were. You could argue that Ross was in the same boat but Ross had the advantage of the authority that came from being a Scot at time that golf was in its infancy in the US. Flynn gets none of the romantic veneer of the amateur or transplanted Scot.

[Tim Martin]

Flynn was indeed a wonderful, and often underrated, architect. His body of work was excellent.


Tillinghast was better!

Undulating greens appeal to many but I believe that sloping greens are more deceptive and allow for more pins.

Mike-The best sets of greens offer variety. Some combination of slope and contour have always been the most compelling for me. I think it’s a greater skill on contoured/tiered greens to be able to find the fall line as opposed to a back to front sloped green where speed is king. Finally I’m a Flynn Fan.

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