[mike_malone]

 Routing skill
 Variety of exceptional parkland and
     seaside designs
 Bunkering principles  ( not penalizers)
 Use of angles particularly at the green
 Slope versus undulation
 Memorability
 Be natural or look natural
 Fairways sideways on hills
 Creative use of water
 Deception (looks one way but the other
    is preferred)
 Tree principles
 American (didn’t copy British courses)
 Scientific
 Not flashy but very strategic
 Disposal of debris natural
 Believed land as best hazard
 
 Any good ideas above I credit to Wayne Morrison. Any goofy ones are mine.


  How do other Golden Age American designers fare?
 
 

[mike_malone]

I will allow Ross as an American.

[Mike Bodo]

For pure aesthetics and difficulty, it's MacKenzie for me. For challenge and playability, Ross. For creativity and uniqueness, George Thomas - even though his is a small sample size. For lasting imprint and design standards, C.B. Macdonald and then Seth Raynor following him (how many template holes and green complexes did he create?) For originality, fun and quirkiness, Old Tom.


Flynn's great in his own right, as are others I left off, i.e. Colt, Alison, Tilly, Park Jr., Langford/Moreau, Maxwell, Thompson, Travis, Watson, Braid etc. but those are my guys and if you made me pick one, it would be George Thomas. I marvel at everything he did in his short time span and only wish he would have done work outside the state of California, as he could have been a monster. Amazing he concocted taking an elevator to tee off a hole. How cool is that? LOL!

[Ronald Montesano]

I sense another Philadelphia-style homebread discussion here. Must be something about the city that gave us John McDermott and his fidelity to all things Red White Blue.

Establish some ground rules and give a list of architects up for consideration.

########################

       Born In the USA
           George Thomas
           William Flynn

       Emigrated and Stayed
           Donald J. Ross, Jr.
           Walter Travis
           Alister MacKenzie
           
       Came, Saw, Conquered, Left
           Harry Colt
           
########################

Feel free to copy, paste, edit my listing, and move ahead. I'm a non-linear guy, unless there's a competition. Then, I need this.

[Jeff Schley]

 Any good ideas above I credit to Wayne Morrison. Any goofy ones are mine.

Indeed Wayne is the authority when it comes to Flynn.

[Jim_Coleman]

    Talk about a dog in the hunt. Crump designed the consensus greatest American course. So I guess he’s the best. McKenzie designed the next 2. Then maybe McDonald, Fownes and Wilson. Or do you want to talk about quantity? Ross and Tilly have pretty deep benches. They all built great courses, including Flynn. Just appreciate what you have. But calm down.

[Steven Wade]

Where does he rank on Golf Digest’s 2023-2024 “Best American Golden Age Architect” list? That’s who I’ll yield my opinion to.

[mike_malone]

Mackenzie isn’t American so he’s out.


 You can’t be the best and be a one hit wonder like Crump.

[mike_malone]

I tried to address as many aspects of design as possible and show Flynn was top notch in each of them. How does Thomas rank in the various aspects of design?

[mike_malone]

    Talk about a dog in the hunt. Crump designed the consensus greatest American course. So I guess he’s the best. McKenzie designed the next 2. Then maybe McDonald, Fownes and Wilson. Or do you want to talk about quantity? Ross and Tilly have pretty deep benches. They all built great courses, including Flynn. Just appreciate what you have. But calm down.


This is a discussion board about golf course architecture not a place to shout down ideas. Try some other board.

[mike_malone]

Imposing template holes onto every course is nice but it’s not design at the highest level, imo. So I love NGLA but then it becomes quite repetitive.
 It is true that Flynn copied his own ideas but that’s because, for instance, angling the green on an uphill approach invites a deep bunker or two on the low side and a high side bunker with less depth. He then usually has an opening to the green.

[mike_malone]

Love bloody Colt and Alison. Cheers.

[Joe Hancock]

Imposing template holes onto every course is nice but it’s not design at the highest level, imo. So I love NGLA but then it becomes quite repetitive.
 It is true that Flynn copied his own ideas but that’s because, for instance, angling the green on an uphill approach invites a deep bunker or two on the low side and a high side bunker with less depth. He then usually has an opening to the green.

So….a template?

[mike_malone]

Imposing template holes onto every course is nice but it’s not design at the highest level, imo. So I love NGLA but then it becomes quite repetitive.
 It is true that Flynn copied his own ideas but that’s because, for instance, angling the green on an uphill approach invites a deep bunker or two on the low side and a high side bunker with less depth. He then usually has an opening to the green.

So….a template?

My understanding of a template in golf architecture is a copy of a famous hole.

[Jason Topp]

I’ve never played a Flynn but my impression is that his courses are stern tests that might not be the most enjoyable.   Do his courses present an enjoyable test for those of us with less skill?

[Brian Finn]

I’ve never played a Flynn but my impression is that his courses are stern tests that might not be the most enjoyable.   Do his courses present an enjoyable test for those of us with less skill?

While I am far from a Flynn expert, I do feel qualified to respond on behalf of those with less skill.   

The handful of Flynn courses I have played have all been extremely enjoyable for me.  Flynn courses I have played (off the top of my head) include Rolling Green, Philadelphia CC, Manufacturers G&CC, and The Country Club in Pepper Pike, OH.  While each was plenty challenging, they were all very playable.  Each of these courses is routed beautifully over good ground for golf, with tremendous design variety, driven primarily by what the land offered. I can't recall losing a ball on any of them, which is usually a good start, in terms of playability.  I can recall being punished for careless course management and very poor execution, but never without an opportunity to recover, another good sign for playability. 

[mike_malone]

I’ve never played a Flynn but my impression is that his courses are stern tests that might not be the most enjoyable.   Do his courses present an enjoyable test for those of us with less skill?

Jason,
I suck at golf but love our Philly Flynns. I usually considered the top 6–Lancaster, Mannies, Philly, Huntingdon Valley, Lehigh, and RG but recently have added Green Valley and Woodcrest to that list.


Often we have out of towners play Rolling Green as their fourth or fifth course in a trip that includes Pine Valley, Merion, maybe Philly Cricket and/or Aronimink. Usually they say


“ I love this course”.


While I’m no expert I find that Flynn seemed to care about people playing his courses. He wanted to engage them.


I am enamored of one thing that he does that engages me. He angled greens and provides an opening over and over. So many other courses have either bunkers parallel to the green ( what’s the point?) or totally surrounding the green. Hit it in the center of the green. Flynn did make some greens with surrounding bunkers like 2 at Philly CC or 3 at Lancaster. Both are uphill as well. They aren’t my favorites.

[mike_malone]

Unfortunately the Thomas in Philly was his early work and is fine but not outstanding. I love watching Riviera and enjoyed the USGA women at Bel Air and men at LACC but I haven’t played them. Thomas may be the equal of Flynn but unlikely that he clearly is above him.


What I like is that he has unique principles of design. I find that to be an outstanding characteristic of great designers

[Ed Brzezowski]

I’ve never played a Flynn but my impression is that his courses are stern tests that might not be the most enjoyable.   Do his courses present an enjoyable test for those of us with less skill?

Jason,
I suck at golf but love our Philly Flynns. I usually considered the top 6–Lancaster, Mannies, Philly, Huntingdon Valley, Lehigh, and RG but recently have added Green Valley and Woodcrest to that list.


Often we have out of towners play Rolling Green as their fourth or fifth course in a trip that includes Pine Valley, Merion, maybe Philly Cricket and/or Aronimink. Usually they say


“ I love this course”.


While I’m no expert I find that Flynn seemed to care about people playing his courses. He wanted to engage them.


I am enamored of one thing that he does that engages me. He angled greens and provides an opening over and over. So many other courses have either bunkers parallel to the green ( what’s the point?) or totally surrounding the green. Hit it in the center of the green. Flynn did make some greens with surrounding bunkers like 2 at Philly CC or 3 at Lancaster. Both are uphill as well. They aren’t my favorites.

I guess we shall change the name from Concord CC to Chopped Liver.

[mike_malone]

I’ve never played a Flynn but my impression is that his courses are stern tests that might not be the most enjoyable.   Do his courses present an enjoyable test for those of us with less skill?

While I am far from a Flynn expert, I do feel qualified to respond on behalf of those with less skill.   

The handful of Flynn courses I have played have all been extremely enjoyable for me.  Flynn courses I have played (off the top of my head) include Rolling Green, Philadelphia CC, Manufacturers G&CC, and The Country Club in Pepper Pike, OH.  While each was plenty challenging, they were all very playable.  Each of these courses is routed beautifully over good ground for golf, with tremendous design variety, driven primarily by what the land offered. I can't recall losing a ball on any of them, which is usually a good start, in terms of playability.  I can recall being punished for careless course management and very poor execution, but never without an opportunity to recover, another good sign for playability.

Brian captured it.

[mike_malone]

I’ve never played a Flynn but my impression is that his courses are stern tests that might not be the most enjoyable.   Do his courses present an enjoyable test for those of us with less skill?

Jason,
I suck at golf but love our Philly Flynns. I usually considered the top 6–Lancaster, Mannies, Philly, Huntingdon Valley, Lehigh, and RG but recently have added Green Valley and Woodcrest to that list.


Often we have out of towners play Rolling Green as their fourth or fifth course in a trip that includes Pine Valley, Merion, maybe Philly Cricket and/or Aronimink. Usually they say


“ I love this course”.


While I’m no expert I find that Flynn seemed to care about people playing his courses. He wanted to engage them.


I am enamored of one thing that he does that engages me. He angled greens and provides an opening over and over. So many other courses have either bunkers parallel to the green ( what’s the point?) or totally surrounding the green. Hit it in the center of the green. Flynn did make some greens with surrounding bunkers like 2 at Philly CC or 3 at Lancaster. Both are uphill as well. They aren’t my favorites.

I guess we shall change the name from Concord CC to Chopped Liver.

Ed,


I think that Concord is as great as it has ever been. Too bad it lost a couple of great Flynn long par threes. Are the greens Flynn or Cornish?  They don’t appear to be like any Flynns I know.
Educate me.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Well Mayday we had Jim Nagle as the arch and some of Flynn's original drawings. We visited numerous Flynn courses to have a good look see at what his unmolested greens were like. I honestly believe we were true to his design when we regrassed and rebuilt some of our greens. Having played Mannys and Lancaster a few times recently I believe you can see the similarities. Yes one or two need to be redone but I think , with Jim's help, we are on the correct track.


Lets see what the Patterson Cup players think?

[mike_malone]

Well Mayday we had Jim Nagle as the arch and some of Flynn's original drawings. We visited numerous Flynn courses to have a good look see at what his unmolested greens were like. I honestly believe we were true to his design when we regrassed and rebuilt some of our greens. Having played Mannys and Lancaster a few times recently I believe you can see the similarities. Yes one or two need to be redone but I think , with Jim's help, we are on the correct track.


Lets see what the Patterson Cup players think?

If this adds to my argument I’m all for it. I guess I am still affected by my early plays there when “Flynn “ never came to mind.

[mike_malone]

Mike Cirba gave a talk on Hugh Wilson where he described his idea not to place the green at the top of the hill. Flynn took this idea and used it often. If you can place the green wherever you choose it opens up a variety of green site possibilities. For me this is genius.

[MCirba]

I believe that the best argument for Flynn in this hypothetical contest is his batting average.


Of those courses Flynn created, both existing, modified, and no longer existing, the very high percentage of them that were/are highly regarded is extremely rare.   Perhaps he had the advantage of becoming an architect in the early teens when a lot of rich guys decided to build golf courses as well as his notoriety as the very successful Superintendent at Merion under the tutelage of Hugh Wilson put him in the right place at the right time, but his routing skills on a variety of challenging palettes (both extremely hilly and dead flat) proved that he had an inherent, exceptional gift.

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