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John Connolly

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Shoreacres Routing
« on: July 07, 2024, 06:17:45 PM »
Is Raynor's drawing for Shoreacres in existence? I noted something interesting from an engineering map of the property dated 1917. His original "short" par 3 12th hole was to play across the ravine in a northerly direction, not down into it. Therefore his original 13th hole did not call for an uphill tee shot out of the ravine but rather a level one across the top of the ravine, with a dogleg right to a green site to the right of the ravine in the NW corner of the property. No shot over it! The implication, potentially, was that the consequent line of play to the next green, the redan 14th, would have been directed OVER the fronting left bunker rather than in line with the green opening, as it is now. This of course assumes the redan green was not reconfigured due this tweaking of 12 and 13. I've read Wolf and Sitar's Raynor book's account of SA but there is no drawn routing. I've seen a thread here on GCA with a host of course routings started but can't find that either with the search function.


I think maybe drawn routings are a hard find in general in the world of Raynor? I'm wondering why he changed 12 and 13. Given that Raynor apparently never prescribed uphill tee shots, that fact that he gave SA's 13th his one and only uphill start is kinda fascinating.
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Tim Martin

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Re: Shoreacres Routing
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2024, 01:15:05 PM »
John-I haven’t played Shoreacres so can’t comment on the premise of your thread. That said I would take exception to the idea that Raynor “apparently never prescribed uphill tee shots” as there are many examples to choose from. 12(Alps) and 17(Double Plateau) at Yale both play uphill and Fishers Island has a handful. Maybe your comments are limited to Shoreacres but I didn’t read it that way.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Shoreacres Routing
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2024, 02:37:47 PM »
John,


Interesting thread.  Way back when I worked for Killian and Nugent and we worked there, I got to play SA several times.  The drop shot 12th was spectacular and the uphill tee shot on 13 terrifying if you hit a low ball.


Just on micro climate I was surprised that the green was down there, and the original plan may have made more sense.  Who knows, maybe it was like Medinah no. 3 course, 10th hole where the original pig farmer there wrote in his will that Medinah would never get that piece of land.  Maybe there was a similar property dispute, or unstable soils, etc.   Maybe a green and tee just didn't fit up there.


If anyone can figure it out, it could be one of the GCA Sherlock Holmes type we have around this site.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Connolly

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Re: Shoreacres Routing
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2024, 04:44:10 PM »
John-I haven’t played Shoreacres so can’t comment on the premise of your thread. That said I would take exception to the idea that Raynor “apparently never prescribed uphill tee shots” as there are many examples to choose from. 12(Alps) and 17(Double Plateau) at Yale both play uphill and Fishers Island has a handful. Maybe your comments are limited to Shoreacres but I didn’t read it that way.


Tim,
Right you are - I meant to say "never prescribed blind tee shots."
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

cary lichtenstein

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Re: Shoreacres Routing
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2024, 05:58:34 PM »
I played Shoreacres many times, always a treat
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shoreacres Routing
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2024, 06:19:01 PM »
John-I haven’t played Shoreacres so can’t comment on the premise of your thread. That said I would take exception to the idea that Raynor “apparently never prescribed uphill tee shots” as there are many examples to choose from. 12(Alps) and 17(Double Plateau) at Yale both play uphill and Fishers Island has a handful. Maybe your comments are limited to Shoreacres but I didn’t read it that way.


Tim,
Right you are - I meant to say "never prescribed blind tee shots."


Thanks John. :)

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Shoreacres Routing
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2024, 11:20:30 PM »
There is some discussion on the changes to 12 and 13 in this thread -


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67551.msg1616160.html#msg1616160
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross