[Ben Sims]

On day five of a foolishly optimistic trip to Scotland. We’ve played multiple rounds each at Cruden Bay, Royal Dornoch, and Machrihanish. We also played one at Brora. There was fresh wind at CB, Brora, and RDGC. But the wind at Mach has been epic. Beaufort scale 6-7 with moments of 8 (gale) when a few squalls have rolled in. We’ve been—when we can actually hear each other—having conversations about what is playable and what’s extreme and how you can remain impartial in your assessment of a golf course in hard conditions. Hit and giggle can be fun. And I want to be clear, Mach is indeed a wonderful golf course. But I’m finding it very hard to objectively evaluate the qualities of the holes because of the extreme reactions our balls are taking.


Do you think there’s a point where survival and acceptance of your inability to score clouds your viewpoint of a golf course?

[Marty Bonnar]

Just be grateful you chose Scotland and not the Caribbean.
Retire to the clubhouse and drown your sorrows in Tennent’s.
Slàinthe,
F.

[Jeff Schley]

On day five of a foolishly optimistic trip to Scotland. We’ve played multiple rounds each at Cruden Bay, Royal Dornoch, and Machrihanish. We also played one at Brora. There was fresh wind at CB, Brora, and RDGC. But the wind at Mach has been epic. Beaufort scale 6-7 with moments of 8 (gale) when a few squalls have rolled in. We’ve been—when we can actually hear each other—having conversations about what is playable and what’s extreme and how you can remain impartial in your assessment of a golf course in hard conditions. Hit and giggle can be fun. And I want to be clear, Mach is indeed a wonderful golf course. But I’m finding it very hard to objectively evaluate the qualities of the holes because of the extreme reactions our balls are taking.


Do you think there’s a point where survival and acceptance of your inability to score clouds your viewpoint of a golf course?

Ben, never heard of the Beaufort scale, guess I'm not nautical. It's a way to classify the MPH into a number it seems. I think most golfers talk about MPH, thus depending on the greens anything over 30-35 balls will move on the green.  That is the point where I think the conditions are unplayable. Less than that and it is a game. 

I agree that courses in windy locations (Cape Wickham as well) do get dinged because it is hard to separate conditions vs. architecture for most.

[Marty Bonnar]

In strong westerlies like today, there’s basically nothing between Newfoundland and the Scottish west coast to attenuate any kind of wind. There definitely comes a point where it becomes pointless or possibly even dangerous to be out on a golf course, especially on the west side. Appreciating architecture is the last thing you should be thinking about!
F.

[Ben Sims]

On day five of a foolishly optimistic trip to Scotland. We’ve played multiple rounds each at Cruden Bay, Royal Dornoch, and Machrihanish. We also played one at Brora. There was fresh wind at CB, Brora, and RDGC. But the wind at Mach has been epic. Beaufort scale 6-7 with moments of 8 (gale) when a few squalls have rolled in. We’ve been—when we can actually hear each other—having conversations about what is playable and what’s extreme and how you can remain impartial in your assessment of a golf course in hard conditions. Hit and giggle can be fun. And I want to be clear, Mach is indeed a wonderful golf course. But I’m finding it very hard to objectively evaluate the qualities of the holes because of the extreme reactions our balls are taking.


Do you think there’s a point where survival and acceptance of your inability to score clouds your viewpoint of a golf course?

Ben, never heard of the Beaufort scale, guess I'm not nautical. It's a way to classify the MPH into a number it seems. I think most golfers talk about MPH, thus depending on the greens anything over 30-35 balls will move on the green.  That is the point where I think the conditions are unplayable. Less than that and it is a game. 

I agree that courses in windy locations (Cape Wickham as well) do get dinged because it is hard to separate conditions vs. architecture for most.

Sorry Jeff, I speak Beaufort on the links for some esoteric reason. Our winds here at Mach has been sustained 25-30 with gusts 35+ without breaking a sweat. Balls are holding on greens simply due to pragmatic maintenance decisions. Oscillating is the norm. For this reason, many of the incredible greens surrounds and internal greens contours seem to be somewhat neutered in affect.


Like you said it’s a game. But as I said I’m finding it hard to take the golf course for its true quality.


I like this conversation because we love golf courses here. But there’s a limit to how much they love us back. I imagine even the best students of GCA find it difficult to evaluate and enjoy in some conditions.

[Tim_Weiman]

Ben,


Good question. I first played the Ocean Course at Kiawah in 30-40 MPH winds and didn’t enjoy it at all. The next day there was virtually no wind and it was a much more pleasant experience.


On the other hand, my first round at Turnberry was in winds that were reported at 70-80 MPH and I loved it, perhaps because back then I could actually hit a 1 iron.


But overall, it is hard to imagine even GCA fanatics not being influenced by playing conditions and how they scored.


Tim

[Ally Mcintosh]

Wind starts turning from enjoyable fun in to a bit of a grind at around 20mph. At that point, the wind is starting to really mess with your swing.


At over 30mph, it becomes a bit silly so as you say Ben, it is a bit of a hit ‘n’ giggle rather than providing any objectivity on your game and by extension how you evaluate a course.


70-80mph is just silly talk.


Talking constants here, not isolated gusts.

[Rob Marshall]

Not sure you could even swing a club in a 30-40 mph wind.

[Ira Fishman]

Ally,


It might depend on how good one’s swing is to begin with. Mine is not particularly good. I find that in strong wind, I tend to focus better on just making solid contact. At Carne last week, my caddie had a wind gauge. It was blowing pretty steady at 17-18mph with gusts into the mid 20s (the highest was at 28+). I played well for me. The same thing was true last year at Fraserburgh and Crail Balcomie where we also had quite strong winds. Of course, it is not always true—coming in on TOC was pretty much a disaster from the perspective of the quality of my play.


Ira

[Matt Schoolfield]

Match play in the wind. Leave par alone, and focus on your opponent.

[Thomas Dai]

Not convinced that golfers are good at accurately stating wind strength in precise number terms. Guesstimates based on clubbing is a bit different, eg it’s a 3 club wind.


I recall that Dave Pelz once did a test with a length of vertically hanging heavy chain. The more the wind blew the more the chain deviated away from the vertical and he was able to measure and plot this in relatively precise terms.


But then again who carries a length of heavy chain around in their golf bag? Well maybe some do although perhaps more likely for self protection if the number of golf course fights posted on social media are accurate!!


Atb

[Marty Bonnar]

Not convinced that golfers are good at accurately stating wind strength in precise number terms. Guesstimates based on clubbing is a bit different, eg it’s a 3 club wind.


I recall that Dave Pelz once did a test with a length of vertically hanging heavy chain. The more the wind blew the more the chain deviated away from the vertical and he was able to measure and plot this in relatively precise terms.


But then again who carries a length of heavy chain around in their golf bag? Well maybe some do although perhaps more likely for self protection if the number of golf course fights posted on social media are accurate!!


Atb

Yes,
I heard he tried to patent it as ‘Chain-Point’, but the Caddies Union were more revolting than usual and it was quietly dropped. (Well, if you can actually drop a chain quietly, that is).
The following year, someone suggested using the angles of the drainage water pipes. They called it ‘Drain Point’. Local plumbers were up in arms so, once again, it was flushed away.
I’m here all week. Try the veal.
Love,
F.

[Thomas Dai]

Nice one Marty.
Enjoy the Emerald Isle.


Atb

[Tim_Weiman]

Wind starts turning from enjoyable fun in to a bit of a grind at around 20mph. At that point, the wind is starting to really mess with your swing.


At over 30mph, it becomes a bit silly so as you say Ben, it is a bit of a hit ‘n’ giggle rather than providing any objectivity on your game and by extension how you evaluate a course.


70-80mph is just silly talk.


Talking constants here, not isolated gusts.

Ally,


70-80 MPH wasn’t my estimate. It was what was reported by local news stations.


In any case, I remember a playing partner ripping into a 3 wood. The ball ballooned, started shaking and wound up 30-40 yards behind him.


Never seen anything like it.


Tim

[Mike_Young]

I think the Bandons and similar will be fine as more and more young people choose destination golf over local private club memberships.  But I do think the ultra private destination clubs that play maybe 20 rounds per year etc could have an issue once the owners who are subsidizing them get tire of "plying in their sandbox"  .  These types can walk away from a 40 million dollar property in most cases but the issue is who is the buyer and how will the next guy make it work.

[Mark Pearce]

On the other hand, my first round at Turnberry was in winds that were reported at 70-80 MPH and I loved it, perhaps because back then I could actually hit a 1 iron.

I can assure you that you did not play golf in winds between 70 and 80 mph.  It's very difficult to stand in winds at that speed.  Impossible to swing a club.  Or even attempt to.

[Niall C]

In strong westerlies like today, there’s basically nothing between Newfoundland and the Scottish west coast to attenuate any kind of wind. There definitely comes a point where it becomes pointless or possibly even dangerous to be out on a golf course, especially on the west side. Appreciating architecture is the last thing you should be thinking about!
F.

Ben


You can ignore anything Bonnar says, he's just an east coast softy.


I was at Machrihanish the week before Christmas and played in similar weather to you. I checked the weather after and apparently the adjacent weather station had it at c.25 mph with gusts of up to 40 mph. I was just at the front end of a storm.


There was a couple of golfers coming off the 18th when I went out and I believe we were the only people that played the course that day. I certainly didn't see any other golfers. It was a magical experience. I absolutely loved it and unlike the East Coast Softy I think it's a great way to experience and even evaluate a course. Yes, the balls oscillated on the greens but I didn't experience any moving off the spot. The wind did however deflect the course of a putt such that putts of about 15 foot which normally would have been fairly straight had "borrows" of about 12 to 18 inches or more. In the States you have grain, here we have wind.


Did the wind stop me playing holes in regulation ? Probably, but what's regulation on a links course ? What you lose on one hole due to wind, you tend to gain on another. As to whether you can evaluate or judge a course under such conditions let me suggest the test is whether it is playable and fun and not whether you can play to your handicap or play the course the way "the architect intended", whatever that means. Machrihanish was eminently playable that day, not because they'd moved all the tees up, I played from the normal tees, but because it doesn't present you with loads of (long) forced carries. Neither are the fairways tight and narrow. As for fun, who wouldn't have fun on a fantastic links with the wind blowing.


Niall 

[Niall C]

Ben


A couple of other comments re greens and wind speeds. When out on the course I met both (!) fulltime greenkeepers. I understand that they may employ a few more bodies during the summer to cope with the additional grass cutting but that's it. Therefore the green speeds are due to not only the practicalities of balls moving on the greens in those kinds of winds, but also due to the amount of resources that a normal club may have.


The second comment, back in December there was a discussion on here about courses shutting due to wind. I asked them whether they ever did that at Machrihanish and they looked at me as though I was an alien. I guess that the modern ways haven't yet quite reached the Mull of Kintyre.


Niall

[Peter Sayegh]

Do you think there’s a point where survival and acceptance of your inability to score clouds your viewpoint of a golf course?

Never.

See ball, hit ball.

[Tim_Weiman]

On the other hand, my first round at Turnberry was in winds that were reported at 70-80 MPH and I loved it, perhaps because back then I could actually hit a 1 iron.

I can assure you that you did not play golf in winds between 70 and 80 mph.  It's very difficult to stand in winds at that speed.  Impossible to swing a club.  Or even attempt to.

Mark,


I understand your skepticism. I have never been in a hurricane, but that day back in late 1980s was unlike anything I have experienced on a golf course or anywhere else.


When we were playing, it was like a war zone. It was difficult to stand or swing a club, just like you suggest. Forget distance. A 100 yard 3 iron along the ground was a great shot. A 220 yard sand wedge (down wind, of course) was easy.


We had no idea what the wind speed was. The 70-80 MPH figure is what staff in the pro shop told us. We heard the same figure on local news when we got back to our room.


One other data point. About a week after we played there was a senior professional event played at Turnberry and winds were reported at 50-60 MPH.


Guess what? Some of the scores were in the 80s, but many failed to brake 90.


In short, conditions on that day were extreme, but quite real and not something I would care to do again.


Tim

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tim,


I can believe it if it was 40mph gusting to 70-80mph which is likely what you had. GB&I weather often talks in terms of gusts rather than constant wind. I’ve been close to the above myself at Enniscrone. I ended up crawling along the 18th fairway using my hands on the ground.


Officially, anything over 74mph is designated a hurricane.

[Rob Marshall]

Not a 3 wood


https://www.nbcsports.com/golf/news/watch-strong-wind-literally-blows-ball-backward-walker-cup

[Thomas Dai]

Beaufort Scale in detail including wind speed categories/descriptions - https://www.rmets.org/metmatters/beaufort-wind-scale


One further matter worth mentioning - temperature - playing is a damn sight more challenging when you’re wearing several layers of clothing. In addition, a ‘cold’ golf ball seems to be more wind effected than a ‘warmer’ ball.


As an aside I recall flagsticks with thick springs attached to the base to allow them to flex in a severe wind rather than allow the complete flagstick and cup to be pulled out of the green by the wind. Of course some flags aren’t solid fabric but have perforations to allow the wind to pass through them.


Atb

[Tony_Muldoon]

The Beaufort Scale is interesting and its historically significant. 
Named after an Irishman serving in the Royal Navy, the Beaufort Scale was a significant development in the Navy "ruling the waves". For the first time 'accurate' information about wind speeds could be shared via signals accross a fleet and indeed the entire navy.  e.g. "as soon as it hits Force 4, start furling the mainsheet." "rounding the Cape prepare for winter winds of....". 


I would trust a Beaufort Scale number from a trained sailor, based solely on their observations.   
Golfers coming up with numbers...not so much.


End of history lesson.

[Jeff Schley]

Agree Tony, it isn't us golfers fault in that judging wind is like asking how far you hit your 7 iron. Golfers will almost always think of the farthest they have ever hit it and say 175.  Probably for wind we feel it the same way in gusts and overestimate.
At Rye Golf Club (and perhaps other clubs) in a hallway to exit and go play the course, they have what looks like a WWII era panel with an array of small light bulbs in a circle.  You flip a toggle switch and the direction of the wind is relayed (from an old wind gauge on the clubhouse) to a couple bulbs noting wind direction and a needle mechanical gauge shows the speed.  Very, very cool and foolproof.

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