[John Blain]

I was watching a bit of the US Senior Open yesterday and BF was saying that in his opinion leaving the flagstick in while putting should be against the rules. He went on to say that "it's a bad look, cheapens the game, etc." He said it would be tragic if someone clanged one off the flagstick to cost them a major championship.
Personally, I don't agree, and I think Brad is being a bit dramatic....
In all fairness Brad seemed a little down on the USGA as he said he badly wanted to play in the championship, wrote the USGA a letter asking for a special exemption and was denied.

[Michael Morandi]

Do the rules require all flagsticks to have identical dimensions some distance from the bottom of the cup?

[Craig Sweet]

I prefer the stick out...When it's in the hole looks like two half's of a hole...thus a smaller target. 

[Chris Hughes]

Do the rules require all flagsticks to have identical dimensions some distance from the bottom of the cup?

Good question re: "distance from the bottom of the cup"...and my initial guess was no, but I decided to check.

As it goes to "The Pole", the rules are as follows:

a. The Pole
   
i. Must be circular in cross-section.
   
ii. Must have a diameter of no greater than 2 inches (50.8 mm) from the top of the pole to a point no less than 3 inches (76.2 mm) above the putting green surface.   
iii. Must have a constant diameter of no greater than 0.75 inches (19 mm) from a point 3 inches (76.2mm) above to 3 inches (76.2 mm) below the putting green surface.   
iv. Must notincorporate features, including its material composition, designed to act in a shock absorbing manner or have shock absorbing properties upon impact with the ball.   


Some interesting language in there...

I have caddied in many USGA events and they all use pins/poles identical to what you see at Newport CC this week.  The pins are made of steel and are very heavy.  I'd assume the width in the 6" section defined above is exactly .75" (taking up the maximum hole space).

If anything USGA pins are designed to repel the golf ball, especially when hit on the fly!!

My sense is the fiberglass pins are in no way "designed" to "absorb shock" but in reality that's exactly what they do vs. the steel USGA spec pins.  (I also suspect they are slightly more narrow in the 6" section above/below the green).

I'm pretty sure Fitzpatrick hit every single shot with the pin in during his US Open win at The Country Club -- personally I think it's a good strategy with the fiberglass pins but were I caddying I'd advise against it with the USGA pins.

I agree with Brad about it being a bad look.  I also don't like the PGA of America allowing rangefinders and shorts.

[Ken Moum]

People choose the oddest things to be offended by.


Mine is players walking up and down their line doing aimpoint. Especially when there's two or three of them doing it at once.

[Brian Finn]

I can understand the view that leaving the flagstick in when putting should be against the rules.  I can also understand why some consider doing so a disadvantage.  I can't understand how it "is a bad look." How?  Why?

[Matt Schoolfield]

Concerns about "cheapening" the sport are cultural and arbitrary. It's reminiscent of pearl-clutching about hoodies.

[Peter Sayegh]

"it's a bad look, cheapens the game, etc." He said it would be tragic if someone clanged one off the flagstick to costthem a major championship.
Personally, I don't agree, and I think Brad is being a bit dramatic....

John,

I agree with you...plus, the flagstick in or out is now a personal, legal decision.
GCA posts have forever lauded how options playing a hole or course add to the golf experience.
Does this fall under that umbrella?

I prefer the stick out...When it's in the hole looks like two half's of a hole...thus a smaller target. 

Craig,
That "look" has actually improved my putting. It reminds me to concentrate and hit the line that will find that "smaller target."

[Dan_Callahan]

I leave the flag in because I'm lazy. Not sure why it would be viewed as a bad look. I think it was a far worse look for Brad to "save" Metacomet and then turn around and shut it down and sell out for real estate development ...

[Carl Johnson]

I think it's a bad look only compared to tradition, what you are used to.  Going back aways, I'm not going to look it up, you could keep the flagstick in.  Was it a bad look then?  Guys smoking on the course, cigars and cigs, is a bad look for me, but obviously not for many others.  Faxon does not impress, but the way.

[Tim Martin]

I can understand the view that leaving the flagstick in when putting should be against the rules.  I can also understand why some consider doing so a disadvantage.  I can't understand how it "is a bad look." How?  Why?

Brian-It’s a bad look in the same way trolleys are a bad look. I don’t get it.

[Michael Morandi]

Do the rules require all flagsticks to have identical dimensions some distance from the bottom of the cup?

Good question re: "distance from the bottom of the cup"...and my initial guess was no, but I decided to check.

As it goes to "The Pole", the rules are as follows:

a. The Pole
   
i. Must be circular in cross-section.
   
ii. Must have a diameter of no greater than 2 inches (50.8 mm) from the top of the pole to a point no less than 3 inches (76.2 mm) above the putting green surface.   
iii. Must have a constant diameter of no greater than 0.75 inches (19 mm) from a point 3 inches (76.2mm) above to 3 inches (76.2 mm) below the putting green surface.   
iv. Must notincorporate features, including its material composition, designed to act in a shock absorbing manner or have shock absorbing properties upon impact with the ball.   


Some interesting language in there...

I have caddied in many USGA events and they all use pins/poles identical to what you see at Newport CC this week.  The pins are made of steel and are very heavy.  I'd assume the width in the 6" section defined above is exactly .75" (taking up the maximum hole space).

If anything USGA pins are designed to repel the golf ball, especially when hit on the fly!!

My sense is the fiberglass pins are in no way "designed" to "absorb shock" but in reality that's exactly what they do vs. the steel USGA spec pins.  (I also suspect they are slightly more narrow in the 6" section above/below the green).

I'm pretty sure Fitzpatrick hit every single shot with the pin in during his US Open win at The Country Club -- personally I think it's a good strategy with the fiberglass pins but were I caddying I'd advise against it with the USGA pins.

I agree with Brad about it being a bad look.  I also don't like the PGA of America allowing rangefinders and shorts.

Not to be too technical but given the guidelines one course could have more friendly pole widths than another, which could yield different scores impacting handicaps. You don’t have that with mandatory flag out rules.

[Michael Morandi]

People choose the oddest things to be offended by.


Mine is players walking up and down their line doing aimpoint. Especially when there's two or three of them doing it at once.

I agree with you about aimpoint. At what point does it alter the playing surface with everybody using it.

[Sam Morrow]

If all the people who get offended by nothing died off golf and the world would be a better place.

[Cliff Hamm]

I leave the flag in because I'm lazy. Not sure why it would be viewed as a bad look. I think it was a far worse look for Brad to "save" Metacomet and then turn around and shut it down and sell out for real estate development ...

Could not agree more.  Faxon goes on and on about how wonderful Rhode Island is, but he is the one who destroyed Metacomet for a few extra dollars in his pocket.  Despicable...

[Dave Doxey]

If leaving the flag in is a "bad look", then what can be said about aimpoint and players walking around the line of their putt?

[Tim Martin]

I leave the flag in because I'm lazy. Not sure why it would be viewed as a bad look. I think it was a far worse look for Brad to "save" Metacomet and then turn around and shut it down and sell out for real estate development ...

Could not agree more.  Faxon goes on and on about how wonderful Rhode Island is, but he is the one who destroyed Metacomet for a few extra dollars in his pocket.  Despicable...

Cliff-I thought Faxon was terrible on the broadcast today. He seemed to be annoyed that Peter Jacobsen was joking around and giving him a hard time. What happened at Metacomet was a crime and any pretense that Faxon would save the day was quickly dispelled. Kinda like going back to your old neighborhood and burning it down.

[Rob Marshall]

I leave the flag in because I'm lazy. Not sure why it would be viewed as a bad look. I think it was a far worse look for Brad to "save" Metacomet and then turn around and shut it down and sell out for real estate development ...

Could not agree more.  Faxon goes on and on about how wonderful Rhode Island is, but he is the one who destroyed Metacomet for a few extra dollars in his pocket.  Despicable...

Cliff-I thought Faxon was terrible on the broadcast today. He seemed to be annoyed that Peter Jacobsen was joking around and giving him a hard time. What happened at Metacomet was a crime and any pretense that Faxon would save the day was quickly dispelled. Kinda like going back to your old neighborhood and burning it down.

Has Faxon ever commented on Metacomet?


His comment about it being tragic if someone lost a major clanking off the flagstick is just plain dumb since the player has the option to leave it in or take it out.

[Mike_Trenham]

Ruling bodies should have added an optional model local rule to require the removal of the flagstick.  Also rule should be once flag is removed it is not returned until play of the hole is completed by everyone in the group, you want the flag in play out first.

[Jeff Schley]

Ruling bodies should have added an optional model local rule to require the removal of the flagstick.  Also rule should be once flag is removed it is not returned until play of the hole is completed by everyone in the group, you want the flag in play out first.

Mike how does this work in anything competitive? I have a putt a foot inside you and I want the flagstick in so I show you the line?

[John Blain]

I leave the flag in because I'm lazy. Not sure why it would be viewed as a bad look. I think it was a far worse look for Brad to "save" Metacomet and then turn around and shut it down and sell out for real estate development ...

Could not agree more.  Faxon goes on and on about how wonderful Rhode Island is, but he is the one who destroyed Metacomet for a few extra dollars in his pocket.  Despicable...

Cliff-I thought Faxon was terrible on the broadcast today. He seemed to be annoyed that Peter Jacobsen was joking around and giving him a hard time. What happened at Metacomet was a crime and any pretense that Faxon would save the day was quickly dispelled. Kinda like going back to your old neighborhood and burning it down.

Tim-
I was getting a headache watching the broadcast yesterday. Three in a booth is one too many. Hicks, Faxon and Jacobsen were all talking over each other and generally all 3 were just talking way too much. I watched the last 30 minutes on mute. It was much more enjoyable.   

[A.G._Crockett]

Ruling bodies should have added an optional model local rule to require the removal of the flagstick.  Also rule should be once flag is removed it is not returned until play of the hole is completed by everyone in the group, you want the flag in play out first.

Mike how does this work in anything competitive? I have a putt a foot inside you and I want the flagstick in so I show you the line?

Wouldn’t work at all for match play.

[A.G._Crockett]

Faxon was, and probably still is, a truly exceptional putter; in his prime, he was generally considered to be one of the best ever.




Which probably means that, among other things, he has exceptional eyesight, including peripheral vision and depth perception.  In tournament play, I play with very few older guys who want the stick out for putts of any length; at the most, some guys want it out for shortish putts, and perhaps the majority now leave it in for ALL putts.




All the studies that have been done about leaving the stick in vs taking it out are about what happens if a putt hits the stick, which means hitting the hole also.  And since most putts of any length do NOT hit the hole, and therefore the not the stick, what the studies don’t measure is the proximity of a 30’ putt with the stick in vs out.




I’m almost 72, and my right eye is damaged to the point that I’m effectively playing with one eye, which means VERY poor depth perception.  The flag in helps me; it’s a bigger and clearer target on putts of length.




As to the “bad look” thing, compared to what?  Somebody tending the flag? 

[A.G._Crockett]

People choose the oddest things to be offended by.


Mine is players walking up and down their line doing aimpoint. Especially when there's two or three of them doing it at once.

What is, or is not  “bad look” is about as subjective as anything could be.  Faxon feels that way about the flagstick; I feel that way about hats on backwards, or shirttails out.  I suspect that as we age what we consider to be a “bad look” becomes a longer and longer list.




Ken, you’d better get use to AimPoint; it’s here to stay.  Not only is it a better way to read slopes, but it’s faster AND doesn’t screw up anybody’s line, any more than other ways to read putts.  (I will NOT argue the point bout it being a better way to read putts; not only is that too much of a threadjack, but I read putts “conventionally” for about 50 years before going to AimPoint because of eye problems; it’s just better.  Period.)




My club just hosted the NC Am; it was dominated by young guys, mostly college players, and I’d say the majority, maybe by a lot, were using AimPoint.  I was the walking scorer for the next to last group on the weekend, and all three of them were using AimPoint.  They also played in 4:10, and nobody walked in anyone else’s line all day.  In a few more years, it’s possible that you will be surprised when you see a guy on Tour NOT using AimPoint.

[JohnVDB]

Ruling bodies should have added an optional model local rule to require the removal of the flagstick.  Also rule should be once flag is removed it is not returned until play of the hole is completed by everyone in the group, you want the flag in play out first.

So you believe the choice regarding the flagstick should overrule the order of play?  No way IMO.

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