Castle Course at St Andrews versus Kingsbarns

[Thomas Dai]

£418 for 18-holes (at Kingsbarns)! Yikes! No thanks.
Atb

[Ben Stephens]

Ben


Who is the GCA for Balmedie 2 ?


Niall

He is a talented golf course architect who I know (not many GCAers know him) - it should be revealed in the Golf Course Architecture media soon and Martin Hawtree is a consultant

[Ben Stephens]

Umm isn't your new course at Cabot Highlands quite constructed as it was basically flat farmland prior to Clyde working on it. The CGI's show a lot of contours which can be easily interpreted as being heavily constructed - just saying.

Ben:


Yes, it is mostly constructed, and I very nearly turned the job down for precisely that reason, but Ben Cowan-Dewar persisted in wanting to work with me, and one of Mark Parsinen's friends [who had the most $ in the project] also encouraged me to take it up.  It's also a great opportunity for Clyde to work somewhere near home and he deserved that after years on the road for me.


Don't pay much attention to the CGI; we have moved quite a lot of dirt to get the fairways on free-draining soil, but it was never our intention to sell the most inland holes as "links" and that's the part that probably bothers me most about Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart and the others, that they feel they have to do that.  There are lots of great seaside courses with some holes off the links ground . . . Ballybunion, Royal Dornoch, St. Enodoc, Westward Ho!, even Cruden Bay has one or two.


I also agree that there is some great land for the second Trump course [or at least, a few holes of it].  When I had the topo maps to look at it years ago, I thought the best part was the dunes just south of the existing course.  If the Scottish government had told Trump he couldn't go into the shifting dunes, and had to settle for one course, I think it would have been better.  And I think he expected them to push back on that, but they never negotiated with him about it!

Thank you for your honesty. I am looking forward to seeing Clyde's work. 


If there are no contour plans provided to the CGI company there can be a tendency of overdoing things in terms of the shaping and contours. One recent CGI compared to the final real version was quite a bit different and the real version looked better.


They have already hydroseeded some of the fairways on Trump 2. It looks like Cabot Highlands 2 And Trump 2 will be open for play from 2026 onwards.

[Roman Schwarz]

I've only played each course once...but they were both on the same day.  It was an admittedly brutal 36.


I may be in the minority, but I don't have strong feelings about the Castle.  It was a fun play, but it wouldn't be what I'd go to Scotland for.  We played it because there was a gap in the schedule and it was convenient to where we needed to be (Kingsbarns after more of our group flew in).  The course just feels like A LOT, but not in a natural way...making it feel very American.  I didn't think the greens were too wild in general, but I found a few cases where the severe greens and the relatively narrow fairways clashed.  The place I really would have liked to attack the pin from was often 20-30 yards into the weeds.


I liked Kingsbarns, but I think the shortcomings have all been spelled out here pretty thoroughly.  I do like that both 9's traverse the land in both directions from the clubhouse, unlike Castle.  The returning 9's feels pretty American in both cases, but it feels a little more like happenstance than pure planning at Kingsbarns.  Kingsbarns wins on feel, but if I went "hole by hole", it would win over Castle pretty handily as well.


A non-GCA feather for Kingsbarns:  they stay open for dinner for the last group coming in, which we were.  This was my first time full day in Scotland, and we weren't aware how difficult it is to find substantive food after a late round.


The cost is too much, though.  I'd rather play either Elie or Carnoustie than Kingsbarns, but for the price you can come close to playing both of them instead.  If we're just comparing to more modern courses, I strongly prefer Castle Stuart to both Kingsbarns and Castle.

[MClutterbuck]

I enjoyed the Castle course in 2017 and would certainly not recommend folks against it. I dont think Kingsbarns is a lot better, and preferred Castle Stuart to Kingsbarns, even though I played it in the worse weather I have encountered in SCO.


But they are not links courses and the experience is way different to links.

[Mark Pearce]

Count me in with the heathens.  I've only played each once but I'd go back to the Castle before Kingsbarns.  What really struck me about KB was that it has been designed to flatter the average golfer.  I played OK but not well and was 8 shots better than handicap at the turn.  Drives flared either side found their way back into play.  I just really enjoyed the Castle, though I really don't mind getting beaten up if there are fun shots to be tried.


My understanding is that the Craighead course was built on a limited budget and that earth moving was restricted to green sites.  Otherwise it remains a pretty flat site.

[Adam Lawrence]

What really struck me about KB was that it has been designed to flatter the average golfer.  I played OK but not well and was 8 shots better than handicap at the turn.  Drives flared either side found their way back into play.

I mean I think that is unarguably true. Mark P was a very thoughtful man, and part of his philosophy was that he wanted golfers to come off his courses happy, and, given that he was American and he knew a large proportion of his players would be American, he knew that meant that on average they needed to score well. It seems very clear to me that the course was designed with that in mind.

[Niall C]

I believe Mark Parsinen's adage was "look hard, play easy" which I'm sure he borrowed from someone else. In terms of Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart, I've always thought the difficulty lay in the greens, and a lot of the interest too.


Niall

[Sean_A]

What really struck me about KB was that it has been designed to flatter the average golfer.  I played OK but not well and was 8 shots better than handicap at the turn.  Drives flared either side found their way back into play.

I mean I think that is unarguably true. Mark P was a very thoughtful man, and part of his philosophy was that he wanted golfers to come off his courses happy, and, given that he was American and he knew a large proportion of his players would be American, he knew that meant that on average they needed to score well. It seems very clear to me that the course was designed with that in mind.

It’s not like Kingsbarns is a cakewalk. Both times I played it was tough. All it takes is a bit of wind. For me, there are plenty of challenging shots and holes.

Ciao

[Brian Finn]

Perhaps my taste is less sophisticated, but I think Kingsbarns is miles better than the Castle Course.  I enjoyed the Castle, and would certainly like to play it again, but Kingsbarns was the first modern course I played in the UK that I thought was truly outstanding.  Understanding that significant earth was moved there, I was impressed by how natural it actually looked.  I am far from expert, but in my amateur eyes the shaping was well done, particularly compared to some other modern "links."  Now, bringing cost into the discussion...if I list the courses I played on the same trip from most to least expensive, I paid less for the five least expensive courses combined than it cost to play Kingsbarns...so, for me, it will be a one-time experience. 

[Stewart Abramson]

I'm not all that interested in playing either of them again. There are so many other choices I'd prefer to return to for the GCA and/or the value.

[Jeff Schley]

Don't feel a need to compare the two head to head, but in terms of preference I think Kingsbarns is quite a bit ahead of the Castle. Much more width and playable. Castle I really would have liked a caddie for the lines.
I can say Castle has a couple very good greens. For example I really loved the par 3, 10th which I know has been softened a couple times but great character.

[Steven Wade]

When I was selected in the lottery to play the Old Course, the Links Trust adds a second round that I had no choice in. I was selected to play the Castle Course. I found it to be the antithesis of what I traveled across the Atlantic for. Our caddies were absolutely incredible and it made the day fun, but I have no interest in seeing it again.


I just feel like David McLay Kidd is like the M. Night Shyamalan of golf course architecture. Made this really critically acclaimed debut and everything since (that I’ve played, which admittedly isn’t everything) has just kind of gotten a shrug from me.


I didn’t play Kingsbarns when I was last over there, because it just didn’t feel like the cost was worth it, especially after just playing Castle. Maybe if I spent a whole summer there I’d get around to it, but there are just too many compelling alternatives for me.

[Kalen Braley]

I just feel like David McLay Kidd is like the M. Night Shyamalan of golf course architecture. Made this really critically acclaimed debut and everything since (that I’ve played, which admittedly isn’t everything) has just kind of gotten a shrug from me.

Steven,

I'm curious, have you tried Gamble Sands? 

[Steven Wade]

Steven,

I'm curious, have you tried Gamble Sands? 

I have not been to Gamble Sands yet.

[Dan Gallaway]

Played both in 2022.  Shot my best score of the trip on Kingsbarns and worst score of the trip at Castle.  I remember Kingsbarns as a pleasant walk with some “neat” holes and great views.  I remember Castle as a ton of fun and lots of “watch this shot” moments.  We walked off many holes at Castle saying, “let’s go do that one again”.  If you feel entitled to your score and the ball doing what you want it to do, then Kingsbarns is great.  If you want to get creative and see how the ball reacts with the ground, the Castle.


Ran into a guy in the Dunvegan who said, “I’m entitled to the result I expect when I play”.  It was a short conversation.