Tennis downsized to Pickleball, will golf eventually downsize as well?

[Craig Sweet]

" Time to play, cost, land availability,…, there are lots of drivers. "
[/size][/color]
[/size]You are saying the world is going to turn into Japan and only the very wealthy will have the time and resources to play on an actual 18 hole course. The rest will have to settle for multi-tiered hitting bays with plastic mats and screened in cages?[/color]

[Mark_Fine]

Craig,
Most of today’s courses aren’t going away anytime soon but an alternative like this could be appealing to many.  Again it needs someone like a Mike Keiser with a big name architect to embrace it. That would sure help. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

It doesn’t make sense to discuss equipment for a 5 handicap player to understand whether modern equipment really makes the game easier for the vast majority of people who play the game.

It does. And it helps the 18 more than it helps a PGA Tour player. And it helps a bad PGA Tour player more than it helped Tiger Woods in his prime.

I see no evidence that modern equipment help people putt better or execute shots around greens.

I see plenty of evidence to support it. Mis-hits on putts go closer to the same distance as center hits these days. Ditto for wedges, where we've studied CG and grinds/bounces and have many options there. Improvements to grooves help as well. The list goes on, that's a small sample. I could have pointed out higher MOI putters and been done, having disproved your point with that alone.

That’s half the game.

Maybe as a raw contribution to scoring, but not in terms of separation.

Moreover, I don’t see it making full iron shots better in terms of distance control or accuracy.

I don't know what to tell you, man: they definitely do. Modern irons are easier to hit in the air and easier to hit a good distance. Give the 10 handicapper a club from the 1950s and a club from 2020s and… they'll also hit it better, higher, and closer on average.

Finally, I’ve played a lot of muni golf recently and seen very few people hit fairways with their modern $500 drivers. Most people can’t, certainly not with any consistency.

It wouldn't be a GCA topic without some hard-core anecdata.

IMO, your perspective is distorted by focusing on golfers (e.g., a 5 handicap) who are far better than the average guy.

I teach people who haven't played the game before, too, and 18 handicappers, and everything from Tour players to beginners.

[Tom_Doak]

Most of today’s courses aren’t going away anytime soon but an alternative like this could be appealing to many.  Again it needs someone like a Mike Keiser with a big name architect to embrace it. That would sure help.

Mark:


You've got the wrong Keiser.  Michael [fils] is already in the process of building a ~4000 yard 18-hole course at Sand Valley that will be more family oriented.


However, I doubt very much that he is going to spend $$$$ to develop a golf ball so that Tour pros can't break 70 on it.  That investment falls back to you.  You might want to call Jack Nicklaus and ask him if he thinks it's a good investment.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
I didn’t know about that course.  Good for Mike.


I will give some more thought to the ball investment    Maybe Jack will see this thread and say what a bad idea this is 

[Steve Wilson]

I don't think there's any question that modern equipment has helped the average and below average player more than the better players.


The average player has so much more to gain.  I read many years ago and I believe that a 2 HCP is closer to becoming a ten than he is to getting to scratch.  The winnowing process as we improve gets crueler and crueler as we try to take those strokes off our handicaps.


Mishits are minimized compared to the blades and department store clubs of my youth (late 50s and 60s).The ball is easier to get in the air and it goes much straighter.  When's the last time you saw a ball slice 30, 40, 50 yards in the air.  Nowadays when balls are hit that far off line it's because someone started it on that line.


They help everybody but they help those who need help the most.


One man's opinion based on my own experience and a lot of observation.

[Thomas Dai]

A couple of words to add to the mix and the potential for smaller golf in the future ……. water restrictions.
Thoughts?
Atb

[Pete_Pittock]

Scale. The big guns can hit it longer than three football fields (with end zones).  I can barely get into field goal range on the second football field.

[Tony Ristola]

Would the game be any less interesting if the ball went not just 10% less but HALF as far as it does today?

I believe $$$ and common sense will eventually prevail. 

Well... they tried that with the Cayman ball, and perhaps it was before its time. Personally, I don't see it... but...


They could reduce the distance the ball flies by 15 percent, and restore interest to the game... and reduce cost. Y'know, bring it back to 1980... when guys hit long irons and fairway woods into 450-yard holes.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

How about more 9 hole games on an 18 hole courses or even courses. Here's one :
https://www.canyonmesacountryclub.com

[A.G._Crockett]

I don’t think pickleball is “little tennis”, but there are smaller versions of lots of other sports; indoor soccer, Arena football, softball, half court and 3 on 3 basketball, and so on.  But golf already has that with par three and executive courses.




I can’t think of an example of any sport truly shrinking, with the larger, original version becoming secondary or ceasing to exist entirely.  For that matter, I can’t think of an example where the popularity of the smaller version has even come close to matching the original. 




The fact that I can’t imagine something doesn’t mean much, but I can’t imagine a significantly shrunken version of golf becoming dominant.  I can, however, imagine golf more or less disappearing as the world gets more crowded, and hotter and drier, but if/when those things occur, the difference between current golf course sizes and the miniaturized size probably won’t matter a bit.  I think it’s much more likely that the day is coming when you won’t be allowed to water your lawn than that there will be a pass given to golf courses under a certain acreage.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Sweetens Cove in Tennessee, a 9 hole course, is more challenging than Canyon Mesa above, but it's very popular. It's ranked #1 for public access in TN.

And at my golf club @55+ and almost 6000 residential units ( no apartments) with 3 courses is trending upwards for  9 hole rounds and we have a  9 Hole Club for events on a weekly basis.


https://sweetenscovegolfclub.com/

[Mark_Fine]

I think what I need to do is go play my home course with an old technology ball from the shorter tees and see how I feel about it.  Not easy for most of us but you have to put your ego aside.  Some still play with old clubs (hickories) but I don’t think we are going back there.  The game is hard enough.  But hitting a ball that just doesn’t go as far but has all the same benefits as today’s ball might be acceptable IF you are playing from the correct set of tees. If you are hitting it 30% shorter, you just play from 30% shorter tees.  Again the idea is it’s the same game just less acreage, less time, less cost, greater safety,…, and hopefully just as much fun. 


I am playing Tralee this Saturday in Ireland.  Not sure my ego would allow me to play there with a shorter ball but these are the hurdles golfers might have to get over.  My ego never allowed me to try Pickleball - I was a tennis player and Pickleball was a stupid game for old people.  As I said, I finally tried it and I was very wrong.

[Mike Bodo]

Mark -

Setting aside the implications for golf, the real question is will Pickleball in the 2020's prove to be the raquetball of the 1980's, a contrived semi-junk sport that had a burst of huge popularity but faded once people realized how one-dimensional the game really was?

DT

I believe you're starting to see the genesis of this taking shape now witih the escalation of injuries - especially amongst the older set who have taken the sport up in droves. I know a number of guys in their 60's and 70's with blown out knees and ruptured achilles who no longer play. The people making big $$$ off pickeball currently are surgeons and doctors.

[Mike Bodo]

We are still in the froth from Covid, but the writing is on the wall.  Golf is getting more and more expensive and I don’t see this trend going down without some fundamental changes.  The tide will turn and golfers will switch to less costly and less time consuming activities. 

Mark, spot on with your comments and I'd argue we are in the early stages of the post-pandemic bust. You'd think with more people having taken the sport up the past several years and the increased number of rounds played, there'd be more courses being built and opening vs. closing? Yet, in the metropolitan Detroit area there are four public courses slated for closure and the city of Ann Arbor is considering alternate use plans for it's two city operated golf courses. There are no new courses being built to replace them.


The problem in my local market is two-fold. Access is shrinking, but so too are rounds played. I notice the tee sheets at the clubs I belong too beiing less full on the weekends than in recent years and the public courses I frequent aren't as busy as I've seen them in the past. While the situation is nothing like it was in 2018/2019, the signs are there that not all is well in the golf world and I attribute much of that to ever-increasing costs and the decrease in disposable income. Something at some point is going to have to give, as you say.

[Mike Bodo]

I'm surprised there hasn't been a mention on this thread about Big Hole golf. That or I missed it. But wasn't that supposed to be the sports saving grace prior to the pandemic?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s9HKnVjd48


That and foot golf. Well, we saw how well those experiments fared. I see much the same fate for picklegolf if it ever were to become a thing.