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Sean_A

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Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #100 on: June 13, 2024, 02:43:04 PM »
Isn't the system if working correctly simply to put everyone on a level playing field? One guy with more tournament experience could win more often than a guy who only plays in matches with his buddies. This is why basing handicaps on tournament scores makes the most sense imo. (UK method)

I want to apologize a bit here Rob. Upon reading through here again, I think I misunderstood your point. I do think that different frameworks of play (casual vs tournament) lead to different styles of play. In that, I think your intuition here is worthwhile and it definitely makes the following comment make much more sense. I would agree with you that tournament handicaps should weighted to count more tournament play than causal play.

I think I missed your intuition because I was in the middle of discussing handicap system as such, so I missed the subtlety that would lead you to, if I'm hearing you correctly, suggest that tournament play is different in kind, and is therefore notable. I will say I think casual handicaps should be mostly based in causal play, but I will definitely echo your suggestion here that tournament play is more serious, and better reflects the actual game.

The point of handicapping is for all players to be competitive despite varying playing abilities. It is clear that the wider the variance between players the less accurate the system becomes.

People think they have all kinds of great ideas to stop this and encourage that. No system can be anything close to perfect. However, I will say, any system without proper attestation has zero chance. The best way to reduce cheating is to play by the rules and with someone else marking and signing your card. It’s not perfect, but that’s the best we can do.

I like the expression "locks keep honest people honest" and that's what I hope a handicap system strives for. Anyone can be a blatant cheat if they like, but the point is that blatant cheats are fairly identifiable -- whether or not the club has the fortitude to do something about it is a different story. I'm a strong believer in reputation, and while I might not be the most likable person, nor do I make the best first impressions, essentially everyone that knows me (even the folks that I'm not exactly besties with) know that I'm about everyone getting a fair shake.

It's just golf. It's a game. We are just talking about a children's game we play as adults. I got taken for a ride in my club last year, and played in the net match play championship, and my opponent effectively refused to give me the strokes I was entitled to, and well, essentially the worst case scenario happened. It ended up being a minor controversy, as I probably would have won if it had been a fair game. I promise you it's rare for me to be so livid.

I lost out on a mostly symbolic honorific. However, my counterpart will never be trusted to play another round without an independent observer. I still think I came out on top.

At the end of the day, as much as I enjoy playing golf with the guys at my club. It's just golf and I never want it to leave the realm of being a fun afternoon with friends. In that way, I think handicapping systems should simply strive to keep honest people honest (and be designed to incentivize honesty!), but it's on clubs to hold their members to task when it comes to blatant cheating.

Handicap accuracy is achieved much easier and more efficiently at the player level (attestation) rather than the club level. The US hasn’t taken attestation seriously in decades. But yer right, it’s just a game. I don’t worry much about the numbers, never have.

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 13, 2024, 04:32:57 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #101 on: June 13, 2024, 04:30:09 PM »
Sean hit the nail on the head, and was inclined to chime in on this thread earlier

You can have the most well-constructed, thought out, peer-reviewed logical algorithm, that takes into account every scenario and works beautifully across all type of players.

But as long as your data integrity is crap/highly suspect due to lack of proper QC and attestation methodology... its all just GIGO!

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #102 on: June 13, 2024, 05:33:40 PM »
Sean hit the nail on the head, and was inclined to chime in on this thread earlier

You can have the most well-constructed, thought out, peer-reviewed logical algorithm, that takes into account every scenario and works beautifully across all type of players.

But as long as your data integrity is crap/highly suspect due to lack of proper QC and attestation methodology... its all just GIGO!
This is a very good point that I've not really thought about before, thank you both. If handicaps were determined by tournament performance, there would be much better quality of handicap. I would worry that they would become a bit stale sooner and fluctuate more, but it's definitely a valid argument (especially when tournaments are really the only place where official handicaps are needed).
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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #103 on: June 13, 2024, 06:16:40 PM »
Sean hit the nail on the head, and was inclined to chime in on this thread earlier

You can have the most well-constructed, thought out, peer-reviewed logical algorithm, that takes into account every scenario and works beautifully across all type of players.

But as long as your data integrity is crap/highly suspect due to lack of proper QC and attestation methodology... its all just GIGO!
This is a very good point that I've not really thought about before, thank you both. If handicaps were determined by tournament performance, there would be much better quality of handicap. I would worry that they would become a bit stale sooner and fluctuate more, but it's definitely a valid argument (especially when tournaments are really the only place where official handicaps are needed).

The UK essentially had comp only cards until the WHS took over. Quality data was sacrificed for inclusiveness as per the US model. The kicker is a huge percentage of US golfers don’t have real handicaps. The inclusive model in the US has never worked.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #104 on: June 13, 2024, 07:01:03 PM »
Sean hit the nail on the head, and was inclined to chime in on this thread earlier

You can have the most well-constructed, thought out, peer-reviewed logical algorithm, that takes into account every scenario and works beautifully across all type of players.

But as long as your data integrity is crap/highly suspect due to lack of proper QC and attestation methodology... its all just GIGO!
This is a very good point that I've not really thought about before, thank you both. If handicaps were determined by tournament performance, there would be much better quality of handicap. I would worry that they would become a bit stale sooner and fluctuate more, but it's definitely a valid argument (especially when tournaments are really the only place where official handicaps are needed).

The UK essentially had comp only cards until the WHS took over. Quality data was sacrificed for inclusiveness as per the US model. The kicker is a huge percentage of US golfers don’t have real handicaps. The inclusive model in the US has never worked.

Ciao


Sean-Using comp cards only works for those that play comps. Should the avid player who only plays four ball games with his pals be closed out of having an association handicap? I don’t know the percentage of players in the U.S. that regularly play in comps but if I’m a better it’s far less than those that don’t. I think people should be able to carry a state golf association by posting scores for casual play.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #105 on: June 13, 2024, 07:18:46 PM »
Sean hit the nail on the head, and was inclined to chime in on this thread earlier

You can have the most well-constructed, thought out, peer-reviewed logical algorithm, that takes into account every scenario and works beautifully across all type of players.

But as long as your data integrity is crap/highly suspect due to lack of proper QC and attestation methodology... its all just GIGO!
This is a very good point that I've not really thought about before, thank you both. If handicaps were determined by tournament performance, there would be much better quality of handicap. I would worry that they would become a bit stale sooner and fluctuate more, but it's definitely a valid argument (especially when tournaments are really the only place where official handicaps are needed).

The UK essentially had comp only cards until the WHS took over. Quality data was sacrificed for inclusiveness as per the US model. The kicker is a huge percentage of US golfers don’t have real handicaps. The inclusive model in the US has never worked.

Ciao


Sean-Using comp cards only works for those that play comps. Should the avid player who only plays four ball games with his pals be closed out of having an association handicap? I don’t know the percentage of players in the U.S. that regularly play in comps but if I’m a better it’s far less than those that don’t. I think people should be able to carry a state golf association by posting scores for casual play.

That’s ok, but then we must accept that the data is inferior to properly attested data. OR, we could have let each country run their own handicapping system to best suit their golf culture.

This entire WHS debacle stemmed from wildly varied playing abilities among elite amateurs qualifying for events. It had next to nothing to do with the average Joe golfer. The result is slower golf in the UK because loads more people are holing out for score instead of treating non comps as casual golf. It’s sad to see UK golf being Americanised.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #106 on: June 13, 2024, 07:35:02 PM »
There’s a term I know that could be helpful here: bifurcation. I’m sure the golfing public will love the concept and and it won’t at all be contentious. 😅
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Chris Hughes

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Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #107 on: June 13, 2024, 08:27:08 PM »

OR, we could have let each country run their own handicapping system to best suit their golf culture.


Exactly.

This entire WHS debacle stemmed from wildly varied playing abilities among elite amateurs qualifying for events. It had next to nothing to do with the average Joe golfer. The result is slower golf in the UK because loads more people are holing out for score instead of treating non comps as casual golf. It’s sad to see UK golf being Americanised.

The R&A was complicit, if not the leader, in advocating for a less-rigorous/more-inclusive WHS....don't blame it on "America"...

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"Is it the Chicken Salad or the golf course that attracts and retains members ?"

Chris Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #108 on: June 13, 2024, 08:41:19 PM »
How do you feel about Dean Knuth's opinion?
I'd weight it above yours, but at the end of the day, that's all it is: an opinion.


Do you disagree with Dean's opinion?  You know better than the guy who designed the best handicapping system that has ever existed?



Quote
The language I quoted is directly from the page under the heading "Why does the soft cap and hard cap exist?" Some part of it is anti-abuse, but that's not the only reason for the existence of the caps. Believe it or not, it doesn't really matter to me. Just the fact of the matter.
Blah blah blah...
Sorry the facts don't align with your forced narrative.


Facts?  Several of us have provided specific facts as it goes to real life oppression due to the laughable/dysfunctional anti-abuse soft-hard-cap system...

...what are your facts?  How many members does your eClub have?

Did you?  Was there a number included?
Yep. Maybe go back and look.


What was the number?  33% of all active handicap holders named Chris Hughes are caught up in anti-abuse seine net known as the soft/hard-cap...real life facts.

Quote
  • I never said my club was representative of anything. (Sure you did.) I simply answered your question.
Now you're just making stuff up. I did no such thing.

I'm done. Seem to remember you saying this a half-dozen times  ;D



"Is it the Chicken Salad or the golf course that attracts and retains members ?"

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #109 on: June 14, 2024, 04:29:10 AM »

OR, we could have let each country run their own handicapping system to best suit their golf culture.


Exactly.

This entire WHS debacle stemmed from wildly varied playing abilities among elite amateurs qualifying for events. It had next to nothing to do with the average Joe golfer. The result is slower golf in the UK because loads more people are holing out for score instead of treating non comps as casual golf. It’s sad to see UK golf being Americanised.

The R&A was complicit, if not the leader, in advocating for a less-rigorous/more-inclusive WHS....don't blame it on "America"...







As I say, the problem was (probably still is) the wildly different handicap differences in elite am golf. So yes, that was a situation that needed to be resolved. Although, at that level there should be no casual scores for handicap. That was probably the easiest solution, but I am sure there were modern ideas of fairness which made that a no go. The bottom line is two fold


1. The US and UK don’t use the same systems….after all that malarkey…maybe one day it will happen.


2. The only thing which really changed for US handicapping was no solo scores are allowed. That was the only nod to proper attestation. I know very well that attestation in the US for casual scores is very lax. To be honest, it’s become that way in the UK as well. I am not interested in marking someone’s card for a casual round. Loads of people mark their own card.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #110 on: June 14, 2024, 06:54:31 AM »
 8)


Recent replies play right into the reasons for my rant. If I want to play tournament golf I can play at scratch let the best player win!


Playing with my daily or weekly group we all want a fair match...at least my group does. So a trending handicap that reflects your scores with some sort of recency is the best way to insure the playing field is level. If someone plays with a bad handicap it doesn't take long to get drummed out or make it right in a perfect world. Sure , Rotella says golf is not a game of perfect but the system needs an overhaul. Said it to Knuth a long time ago , say it today and the changes certainly only made it worse. But we soldier on !  hit em straight
« Last Edit: June 14, 2024, 07:48:09 AM by archie_struthers »

Garland Bayley

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Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #111 on: June 14, 2024, 07:01:02 AM »
...

I'm not talking about abuse as you are. I'm talking about the fact that statistics and course ratings can not totally cover the vast variation in golfing abilities of golfers carrying handicaps and posting scores honestly.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2024, 07:03:26 AM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #112 on: June 14, 2024, 08:09:56 AM »

Playing with my daily or weekly group we all want a fair match...at least my group does. So a trending handicap that reflects your scores with some sort of recency is the best way to insure the playing field is level.


Don't know if this would work for you, but if that's all you want, couldn't you give strokes based on your prior game's results and  give strokes based on each player's performance in the preceding game? If you had a bad round yesterday you'd get strokes today. If you played better today, you'd get fewer strokes tomorrow (or possibly give strokes). You can't have more "recency" than that. When I played in a regular weekly group, not all the players had official handicaps so we usually assigned strokes on the first tee based on how we typically played and adjusted them each week based on how we played the preceding week.


edited to fix typos
« Last Edit: June 14, 2024, 08:13:26 AM by Stewart Abramson »

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #113 on: June 14, 2024, 10:30:00 AM »
 8)


Stewart that's true and a good idea but we play in a fluid group with a core of regulars and some drop in's given our location in a resort area. Summer folks lots of fun and really help flesh out the game in season! However that precludes almost anything save a use of the GHIN.  in the off season we have a nice skins game with a low net low gross winner also. If some one has a bad number the commissioner typically talks to them if they have a bad number , then he tosses them! ;D


Going to figure out some better mouse trap someday , just lobbying you guys early before I roll it out!


OFF to play enjoy the day all 8) 8) 8) 

« Last Edit: June 14, 2024, 06:39:36 PM by archie_struthers »

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #114 on: June 14, 2024, 10:36:12 AM »
Didn"t see in the thread, anyone use CAP COP   . the program used to catch " unusual activity" ?
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #115 on: June 14, 2024, 10:53:23 AM »
Sean-Using comp cards only works for those that play comps. Should the avid player who only plays four ball games with his pals be closed out of having an association handicap? I don’t know the percentage of players in the U.S. that regularly play in comps but if I’m a better it’s far less than those that don’t. I think people should be able to carry a state golf association by posting scores for casual play.
If the same fourball play regularly, they can surely devise their own handicapping system for those games.  Spoiling a system that allows strangers to compete fairly in competition to allow players that don't compete (even at club level) to have a social game seems .... odd.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #116 on: June 14, 2024, 12:23:26 PM »
Is there public data on how often a cap is triggered?

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #117 on: June 14, 2024, 02:23:02 PM »
The biggest issue IMO is having accurate caps for member-guest or just member tournaments where there is a calcutta or other betting for $$$.  We had a situation a few years ago at my club where a member shot an extremely unlikely score in a tournament and won first place in a member-member tournament where the pot is over $10,000.  Other guys screamed and the club withheld the pot and contacted Golf Canada.  They decided to DQ this team for cheating and the offender was kicked out of the club.
The cheating was by purposely taking additional strokes in regular posted rounds and inflating the cap.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #118 on: June 14, 2024, 05:42:53 PM »
The biggest issue IMO is having accurate caps for member-guest or just member tournaments where there is a calcutta or other betting for $$$.  We had a situation a few years ago at my club where a member shot an extremely unlikely score in a tournament and won first place in a member-member tournament where the pot is over $10,000.  Other guys screamed and the club withheld the pot and contacted Golf Canada.  They decided to DQ this team for cheating and the offender was kicked out of the club.
The cheating was by purposely taking additional strokes in regular posted rounds and inflating the cap.


So in other words, not only was the problem with a dishonest member and NOT with the handicap system methodology itself, but it was dealt with summarily at the club level, which is an absolutely critical piece of the methodology.




Character flaws in human beings have always been with us, and always will be.  Cheaters are no more an indictment of the handicap system than they are of the Rules of Golf.  And, at least in my experience, there is far less cheating now than in days gone by.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #119 on: June 14, 2024, 07:02:36 PM »
The biggest issue IMO is having accurate caps for member-guest or just member tournaments where there is a calcutta or other betting for $$$.  We had a situation a few years ago at my club where a member shot an extremely unlikely score in a tournament and won first place in a member-member tournament where the pot is over $10,000.  Other guys screamed and the club withheld the pot and contacted Golf Canada.  They decided to DQ this team for cheating and the offender was kicked out of the club.
The cheating was by purposely taking additional strokes in regular posted rounds and inflating the cap.

So in other words, not only was the problem with a dishonest member and NOT with the handicap system methodology itself, but it was dealt with summarily at the club level, which is an absolutely critical piece of the methodology.


AG,

I would disagree with your assessment.  You can't disassociate the data integrity component and claim its separate from the Handicap system.

Its a bit like the Seinfeld episode where Jerry shows up to get his car rental, but they are out of stock despite him having a reservation.  They have a hilarious back and forth where he basically says "I don't think you understand how this works" 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-brgkkjnHc

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #120 on: June 14, 2024, 08:51:16 PM »
The biggest issue IMO is having accurate caps for member-guest or just member tournaments where there is a calcutta or other betting for $$$.  We had a situation a few years ago at my club where a member shot an extremely unlikely score in a tournament and won first place in a member-member tournament where the pot is over $10,000.  Other guys screamed and the club withheld the pot and contacted Golf Canada.  They decided to DQ this team for cheating and the offender was kicked out of the club.
The cheating was by purposely taking additional strokes in regular posted rounds and inflating the cap.

So in other words, not only was the problem with a dishonest member and NOT with the handicap system methodology itself, but it was dealt with summarily at the club level, which is an absolutely critical piece of the methodology.


AG,

I would disagree with your assessment.  You can't disassociate the data integrity component and claim its separate from the Handicap system.

Its a bit like the Seinfeld episode where Jerry shows up to get his car rental, but they are out of stock despite him having a reservation.  They have a hilarious back and forth where he basically says "I don't think you understand how this works" 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-brgkkjnHc


In Wayne’s story, there is no “data integrity component”; just a guy that cheated and got caught and dealt with.  That a human integrity component.




I’m confident I understand the handicap system about as well as anyone here, yourself included, Seinfeld episode or not.  On my current GHIN page, my last 15 scores have been net comps, and I’ve been involved in running net comps at my clubs for nearly two decades now, so I think I’m reasonably familiar with all aspects of the handicap system. 




Cheaters cheat; always have, always will.  People exceed speed limits, cheat on their taxes, cheat at golf, and even (gasp!) on their handicaps. 




The Rules of Golf aren’t somehow defective when people take mulligans, or rake putts, or don’t take stroke and distance, or whatever.  Likewise, when cheaters cheat on their handicap, the system isn’t somehow defective, no matter how much the grumpy old men that dominate this site want that to be true. 




The solutions aren’t complicated, either, and they are getting better all the time with software like Cap Patrol.  And I’ll say it again; the majority of alleged sandbagging complaints I’ve fielded over the years have been from vanity caps who rarely play fully under The Rules and then lose to a higher index who does.  The instances of true sandbagging that I’ve come across aren’t as rare as unicorns, but they ARE rare.  And if they aren’t dealt with, that’s a management issue, not a flaw in the system.




Archie’s original rant, of course, is something entirely different.  He’s playing poorly, but not fast enough and/or often enough to get his index to where he thinks it SHOULD be.  He wants an index that is more reflective of his average than his demonstrated playing ability, and you are welcome to think whatever you want of THAT idea.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #121 on: June 14, 2024, 10:23:28 PM »

Archie’s original rant, of course, is something entirely different.  He’s playing poorly, but not fast enough and/or often enough to get his index to where he thinks it SHOULD be.


I can't imagine a system that would achieve that without serious side effects.  If the number went up faster with bad play, then it would also do it going down.


Re. your comment re. sandbagging being rare, I think it depends on the locale. When I lived in Kansas,  the KGA sponsored a year-long Kansas Cup that practically institutionized it.


Furthermore,  a skins game that makes a 16 handicap give up 8 shots against scratch players isn't aimed at being fair.


I know it's been done that way for a long time in a lot of clubs, but that doesn't make it right.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #122 on: June 15, 2024, 07:24:56 AM »
 8)




"A skins game that makes a 16 handicap give up 8 shots against a scratch player isn't aimed at being fair"


Ken , if we played our skins games at full handicap the worst players would rule ....Again they typically lack the short game skills or discipline to keep a round together at medal play...but yesterday I was giving shots to two guys who can drive it over 300 and putt pretty good. I would feel pretty confident I could beat them in our club championship, but typically they do better in the skins game than me...that's the inequity in the system that nobody has been able to address ,YET


It's about recency ...

maybe , just maybe a smaller sampling is the key , though the fluctuations would be far greater...again we used to play the "trend"

A.G.    I think we have reached a rapprochment on the issue , thanks for your input  ;D ;D  



« Last Edit: June 15, 2024, 07:48:53 AM by archie_struthers »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #123 on: June 15, 2024, 07:41:46 AM »

Archie’s original rant, of course, is something entirely different.  He’s playing poorly, but not fast enough and/or often enough to get his index to where he thinks it SHOULD be.


I can't imagine a system that would achieve that without serious side effects.  If the number went up faster with bad play, then it would also do it going down.


Re. your comment re. sandbagging being rare, I think it depends on the locale. When I lived in Kansas,  the KGA sponsored a year-long Kansas Cup that practically institutionized it.


Furthermore,  a skins game that makes a 16 handicap give up 8 shots against scratch players isn't aimed at being fair.


I know it's been done that way for a long time in a lot of clubs, but that doesn't make it right.


I don’t understand how a 16 handicap gives up 8 shots to a scratch player.  Assuming that they are playing 18 holes from the same tees, and assuming the “scratch” player is a zero, I don’t get the math.




If a particular club has been doing something like this for a “long time”, that’s a club management issue, isn’t it?  As is “institutionalized” sandbagging.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My yearly handicap system rant
« Reply #124 on: June 15, 2024, 08:29:51 AM »
Shouldn’t a handicap system only include rounds where the primary goal is to score as low as you can to beat your competitors? 


If that’s the case then should match play, skins games and Stableford rounds even be included?  When I play these rounds I swing for the fences and take undue chances to earn points / win holes (and $) with “going low” a secondary concern. 

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