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Mike H

  • Karma: +0/-0
Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« on: June 01, 2024, 03:38:49 PM »
Is there a course that challenges pros yet is fun and not overly difficult for the average golfers?  I've played Valhalla Golf Club many times and typically I see people struggle.  After watching the PGA Championship a couple weeks ago, obviously the pros didn't experience the same challenge most players do when playing there.


What architectural features challenge today's professional golfer yet allow for the normal player to have a decent score and be fun?  Is this even achievable on a championship course anymore?


Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2024, 03:48:38 PM »
Pebble Beach if you account for tournament vs resort conditions.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2024, 04:15:11 PM »
Pebble Beach if you account for tournament vs resort conditions.


People have fun at Pebble Beach because it's famous and beautiful, but they usually get their ass handed to them, too.


Wild greens can be fun for the amateur and challenging for the Tour pro, but the pros don't LIKE wild greens, and claim they are unfair.  They only like features that make the course much harder for everyone else.

DFarron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2024, 06:17:16 PM »
Not sure....loved Trinity Forest but they had to move the Byron Nelson because the course wasn't hard enough for tour players. I think Brandel is correct, to challenge a tour player you need thick rough and trees.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2024, 06:37:16 PM »
Pebble Beach if you account for tournament vs resort conditions.


People have fun at Pebble Beach because it's famous and beautiful, but they usually get their ass handed to them, too.


Wild greens can be fun for the amateur and challenging for the Tour pro, but the pros don't LIKE wild greens, and claim they are unfair.  They only like features that make the course much harder for everyone else.




You may be correct for the average player Tom, but that wasn’t my experience. As a decent player. I thought Pebble was relatively easy and I played as far back as they would allow. I thought Spyglass was much harder. Probably helped that I had a great caddie.



If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Jim Lipstate

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2024, 07:33:31 PM »
My pick is Pinehurst #2. The fairways are reasonably wide. Trees are almost never in play and virtually no water to deal with. Yet get to to the greens and scoring for even the elite golfer becomes difficult. I typically would putt up the inclines to the turtlebacked greens. You usually are not forced to hit chips with wedges from tight lies unless that is your choice. As I recall Martin Kaymer at the last US open almost always used his putter to get on the greens from the closely mown surrounds. Bogeys are fairly easy but birdies and pars are more difficult. I think most golfers from the appropriate tees for their skill level can thoroughly enjoy this championship high profile course.

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2024, 09:09:59 PM »
Agree with Jim….


Can’t lose a ball. Lots of room off the tee and large chipping areas for weaker player. It’s certainly fun for me. Played it with hickories and still had fun.


Extremely demanding approach shots and significant consequences for a missing for the best player. Brutal for a scratch player.


Conceptually a perfect golf course.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2024, 09:52:24 PM »
Lido!!!


Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2024, 12:17:08 AM »
Do links courses generally do a better job of this? I have only played one course on the Open rota and a couple US Open courses, but I would guess they are more playable on average than US major championship venues.


It could also be that links golf better suits my style of play in particular but that other players at my skill level would have a different experience. I am a 9 handicap.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2024, 04:56:22 AM »
TOC?
Although whether it’s still challenging for the pro’s isn’t certain.
Atb

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2024, 05:27:47 AM »
Pebble Beach was very playable, but I also played it two weeks before the pro-am in benign conditions with low rough.

I played poorly but that was the result of a driver that got me in trouble and having to play 9 and 10 directly into the strongest winds of the day.

My brother is a scratch and shot 73.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2024, 10:21:47 AM »
Seems to me that one answer is the like the work Tom Doak and his crew did, in conjunction with Brooks Koepka, at Memorial Park. Less sand, more crowned greens with short mown grass surrounding the greens.


Also, someone here asked the question once upon a time if a golf course could answer Mr. Bogey’s question by having bunkerless greens while utilizing bunkers from tee to landing zones….



" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2024, 10:26:03 AM »
I was thinking you could accomplish this at least partially with par designations, even thou it wouldn't work for every hole length. And have the added bonus of everyone plays from the same tees for that hole.

280 yard hole?  Par 3 for pros, 4 for everyone else.
500 yard hole?  Par 4 for pros, 5 for everyone else.




Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2024, 11:56:03 AM »
Wide landing areas, minimal places to lose a shot (water, OB, etc) along with closely mowed areas surrounding turtleback green even things out for all.


I also prefer a few grass bunkers protecting greens - the inconsistent lie in a grass bunker challenges the better player - the higher handicapper lies a bit of grass under the ball to help with loft and hitting a softer shot.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2024, 01:07:11 PM »
See MacKenzies 13 principles?
Atb

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2024, 02:19:19 PM »
I have played TPC Sawgrass and found that it is very playable and enjoyable with generous fairways and fun greens.  Today the pros that are at the top of their game can score really low on it but very penal if not in proper position. 

Pierre_C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2024, 03:51:43 PM »
Ridgewood CC, New Jersey - East & Center. It's an enjoyable place to play for the membership. Normal conditions the course is a challenge but extremely fun ( 1st & 6th holes on Center are great - if you play the correct tees. Tournament conditions, just brutal day, extremely penal when rough is grown and windy day.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2024, 10:02:27 PM by Pierre Cruikshank »
(2^82589933) - 1

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2024, 09:25:19 AM »
I think the Country Club under normal conditions is very playable, especially if you take a caddy who is good at located balls in the wispy grass. I played it right before they hosted the US Am, and it was a completely different animal. Absolutely kicked my ass.

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2024, 12:53:50 PM »
Wide landing areas, minimal places to lose a shot (water, OB, etc) along with closely mowed areas surrounding turtleback green even things out for all.


I also prefer a few grass bunkers protecting greens - the inconsistent lie in a grass bunker challenges the better player - the higher handicapper lies a bit of grass under the ball to help with loft and hitting a softer shot.


Great post Bruce.

Your first two points (width and lack of penalties) seem obvious for an average/below player.

Question for you:

"closely mowed areas surrounding turtleback green even things out for all?"
I agree wholeheartedly with this but wonder why YOU think so.


I don't know if a grass bunker challenges the better player but you nailed it regarding a higher handicapper.




Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2024, 02:30:36 PM »
Below, from an "In My Opinion" piece on Texas architect Ralph Plummer I authored in 2006.  Same issues 60 years ago, not many better solutions that I'm aware (not too dissimilar to many interested in politics endlessly searching for "the third way").  Perhaps the new Colonial CC with the lowered green complexes and mostly open entries characteristic of its original construction (led by Plummer) is going in the right direction.  High rough for the tournament as much as the early season enables with the common heavier winds provide the stern test for a week every year, followed by kinder mowing patterns and calmer winds as the summer approaches in deference to the members. 


In a candid 1965 interview published in the “Fort Worth Star Telegram”, Plummer allowed a glimpse of his design philosophies as well as a perspective of the game and the challenges it faced at that time. Amazingly, those same issues are valid today. Plummer was concerned with the effects of how far the ball was going as a result of improved technology, better swing technique, and higher competitive opportunities from high school through college to the pro tour.

He discussed how Augusta had to constantly change to keep up with the game, and was prescient in opining that narrowing the fairways and letting the rough grow would lead to the higher scores tournament officials were seeking. In what would surely apply to Tiger and Mickelson in 2006, Plummer noted (tongue-in-cheek) that Nicklaus was hitting the ball so well (and far), tournament officials “might have given him a saliva test”!

Plummer believed that there were several significant considerations in designing a successful course. Surprisingly, the site or its selection is not among them: “I’ve built them in mesquite thickets in West Texas, rice fields in Louisiana, and swamps in Jamaica” said Plummer. Instead, most likely reflecting the locales where he worked and tight construction and operating budgets, the availability of water for irrigation was paramount.

Consistent with where he learned and practiced his craft, the prevailing winds was his next consideration. He believed that a course should be laid out with cross winds so golfers would be encouraged to control the ball as opposed to only fighting the wind.

Taking into account the special allure of power in the game, he wanted his courses to stretch out to at least 7,000 yards (in 1965!), but still be challenging and playable for the average golfer from the shorter tees at around 6,300 yards.

Believing that the wind is the biggest obstacle for the expert player, he opined that heavy rough is often the only controllable option that kept a course from being irrelevant to the professionals. From a practical standpoint, it should be noted that managing the rough is probably the least costly and management intensive practice for a course which hopes to meet the objectives of its regular clientele and yet hold occasional high-level tournaments.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2024, 03:33:01 PM by Lou_Duran »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2024, 03:07:00 PM »
Lou,


I think the solutions to the question has been in place for years - narrow fw, deep rough, and faster greens, all of which can be controlled by the super for that one week a year he/she may need it for a tourney, and somewhere in between normal play and that for a club tourney, i.e., green speeds from 9 to 11 for club tourneys and up to 13 for pro tournaments.


I used a lot of grass bunkers.  At one club presentation, the green chair said that grass bunkers were harder for good players than sand, and easier for lower level players......Exactly!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2024, 03:24:29 PM »
ANGC

WW

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2024, 04:06:27 PM »
Jeff,


Agree 100%.  Nothing worse for the average player than a course with poorly maintained bunkers where the bunkering is a major design feature.   Well-drained grass bunkers serve the subject objective and are easier to maintain.


The more I play and learn about GCA the more I've come to believe that course setup to highlight the architecture in congruence with weather and ground conditions is key to enjoyment and interest.  That this it is often neglected by golf course management in favor of rotating hole and tee locations based mostly on turf conditions detracts from what many of us experience regularly.  Some of the better clubs pay the necessary attention, no doubt reinforcing their reputation.   

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2024, 11:35:19 PM »
My pick is Pinehurst #2. The fairways are reasonably wide. Trees are almost never in play and virtually no water to deal with. Yet get to to the greens and scoring for even the elite golfer becomes difficult. I typically would putt up the inclines to the turtlebacked greens. You usually are not forced to hit chips with wedges from tight lies unless that is your choice. As I recall Martin Kaymer at the last US open almost always used his putter to get on the greens from the closely mown surrounds. Bogeys are fairly easy but birdies and pars are more difficult. I think most golfers from the appropriate tees for their skill level can thoroughly enjoy this championship high profile course.


I have not played P#2, and I have no idea how the pros would do here, but what you describe sounds similar to how I feel the Loop has tended to play.  When the guys from No Laying Up went there, it was a little polarizing, and one of the most interesting parts of the discussion was how the lower handicappers didn't much care for it and thought it was a bit unfair, while the higher handicappers loved it.  It was very firm (as it was when I played it in 2018), and that presents a challenge that good players, who are used to controlling their ball in the air, tend not to like.  Meanwhile, for the higher handicapper, it's wide, you're not going to lose many if any balls, and you don't have to chip from tight lies from 40 yards out because you can putt everything if you choose. 


I don't know that it qualifies as a place where good players struggle to score while worse players find it easier to score.  But players who judge a course on how easily they can bend it to their will may not like it, while players who judge a course by how many balls they have left in their bag at the end of the round will love it.

Mike H

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging for pros yet fun for amateurs
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2024, 05:32:07 PM »
After watching this weekend, i'm not sure how the average amateur can have "fun" while playing Pinehurst #2.  Pinehurst #2 is a fantastic course but if pros can't handle the Pinehurst greens, can amateurs?  Even then, I can't fathom most amateurs being able to navigate that course in 4 hours.  Even as challenging as the greens were, a lot of players still put up good scores throughout the week.  I'm beginning to think there isn't much a course can do architecturally to challenge players other than making the conditions that week unplayable.