College golfers to be paid directly

[Michael Moore]

Just read about the NCAA antitrust settlement and how it will lead to players being paid directly. Let me guess, the USGA will consider them to be amateur golfers.

[Michael Morandi]

The case for college golfers getting paid is somewhat dubious. It’s not a revenue sport, the players often get preference in admissions, and they get to hone their skills in the minor leagues, which is what college  golf at the highest levels has become. I get why major football and basketball programs need to pay their athletes who generate millions for the school, in addition to rousing alumni to make donations. But non-revenue athletes?  Not so sure. But you can’t stop a sponsor who wants to invest in a young golfer from giving to an NIL.

[Mike Worth]

the players often get preference in admissions, and they get to hone their skills in the minor leagues, which is what college  golf at the highest levels has become.

These were precisely the arguments used by the NCAA in the larger case - saying college athletes don’t need to be paid because we gave them trinkets — an admissions preference and a
high level of completions.


The NCAA lost the case.

[Tim_Weiman]

The case for college golfers getting paid is somewhat dubious. It’s not a revenue sport, the players often get preference in admissions, and they get to hone their skills in the minor leagues, which is what college  golf at the highest levels has become. I get why major football and basketball programs need to pay their athletes who generate millions for the school, in addition to rousing alumni to make donations. But non-revenue athletes?  Not so sure. But you can’t stop a sponsor who wants to invest in a young golfer from giving to an NIL.

Michael,


What do you mean by “giving to an NIL”? Did you mean to say “giving to a collective”?


By the way, recently I spoke to a representative of a major club manufacturer. He said the NIL for college golfers has no value and won’t until they go pro and win pro tournaments.


Tim

[Michael Morandi]

Mike Worth,
I was limiting my point to non-revenue sports and clearly stated that football and basketball are in a different category.


MM

[Michael Morandi]

Tim,


I’m familiar with at least one situation not involving a golf manufacturer where a college golfer is getting an NIL deal (not to a collective) from a “sponsor” prior to the golfer going pro.


MM

[Niall C]

Just read about the NCAA antitrust settlement and how it will lead to players being paid directly. Let me guess, the USGA will consider them to be amateur golfers.

Right up to the point when the best ones are being "sponsored" by LIV and the Saudis 


Niall

[Rob Marshall]

NIL has ruined college basketball and football…….

[Jeff Schley]

This has all happened so fast, does this NIL jeopardize any amateur status for golf's governing bodies?  Or does their definition lie only in the fact that there is no prize money won during competitions?  Maybe interesting to follow as this moves forward for golf and other sports.

[Rob Marshall]

This has all happened so fast, does this NIL jeopardize any amateur status for golf's governing bodies?  Or does their definition lie only in the fact that there is no prize money won during competitions?  Maybe interesting to follow as this moves forward for golf and other sports.

15 year old Miles Russell has a multi year NIL deal.


https://www.si.com/fannation/name-image-likeness/news/15-year-old-golfer-signs-nil-deal-with-transcend-capital-advisors-matt9

[Pierre_C]

Good thing the Ivy League doesn't give athletic scholarships.

Just read about the NCAA antitrust settlement and how it will lead to players being paid directly. Let me guess, the USGA will consider them to be amateur golfers.

[Michael Morandi]

For the time being the Ivy League will not form school NIL collectives, but some athletes do have an NIL. It’s rare. This may be the reason why Harvard and Yale’s top basketball players transferred to Georgetown and Michigan, respectively, although one could make the  case that they wanted more visibility and competition to establish their NBA credibility. The new agreement is about revenue sharing, so I ask the question: should the lead violinist in the university orchestra get a percentage of ticket and recording revenue?  Where does it end? 

[Tim_Weiman]

For the time being the Ivy League will not form school NIL collectives, but some athletes do have an NIL. It’s rare. This may be the reason why Harvard and Yale’s top basketball players transferred to Georgetown and Michigan, respectively, although one could make the  case that they wanted more visibility and competition to establish their NBA credibility. The new agreement is about revenue sharing, so I ask the question: should the lead violinist in the university orchestra get a percentage of ticket and recording revenue?  Where does it end?

Michael,


As someone who makes an annual contribution to Princeton’s football program, I received notice that the university will consider any NIL income as part of family income for the purpose of financial aid calculations.


I’m not sure NIL collectives make sense for the Ivies.


Tim

[Michael Morandi]

Tim,


I hadn’t thought of that aspect in computing income for financial grant purposes.  Good point. Given that, the Ivies will struggle to get top talent that qualifies for an athletic scholarship and NIL at highly regarded schools with a network like Duke and Notre Dame. I’m told our Princeton coaches are a bit distressed after yesterday’s revenue sharing agreement. The kids and the calculations have changed.


Michael.

[Tim Martin]

UCONN’s football coach Jim Mora created quite a stir last Fall when he said of NIL deals “Because if you’re not going to help us get the players to beat them, then you are not entitled to bitch when we don’t beat them.” This was not only directed at the school but to boosters, alumni and fans in general. Some saw this as an excuse for not putting forth a better effort while others have taken the position that it’s the new way of the world in college athletics.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim,


I hadn’t thought of that aspect in computing income for financial grant purposes.  Good point. Given that, the Ivies will struggle to get top talent that qualifies for an athletic scholarship and NIL at highly regarded schools with a network like Duke and Notre Dame. I’m told our Princeton coaches are a bit distressed after yesterday’s revenue sharing agreement. The kids and the calculations have changed.


Michael.

Michael,


The Ivy League banned athletic scholarships in 1956. Financial aid is based solely on family income with the big three (Harvard, Princeton and Yale) providing most financial aid in the form of grants rather than loans.


There is so little revenue involved in Ivy League sports that I am not sure the recent ruling about colleges being able to pay students matters very much.


Tim

[Tim_Weiman]

UCONN’s football coach Jim Mora created quite a stir last Fall when he said of NIL deals “Because if you’re not going to help us get the players to beat them, then you are not entitled to bitch when we don’t beat them.” This was not only directed at the school but to boosters, alumni and fans in general. Some saw this as an excuse for not putting forth a better effort while others have taken the position that it’s the new way of the world in college athletics.

Tim,


What many people don’t understand is that the name, image and likeness of 99% of college football players has no value.


NIL contracts are legal, but that doesn’t mean they are economic.


I don’t know why anyone is surprised by this. It is even true for most professional athletes.


Tim

[A.G._Crockett]

NIL has ruined college basketball and football…….

If by “ruined” you mean that college athletes are now able to profit from their own name, image, and likeness, instead of the school, the NCAA, the television networks, and corporations like Nike being the ones to profit, then college football and basketball were “ruined” for a good purpose, and it was long, LONG overdue.

[Sean_A]

Tim,


I hadn’t thought of that aspect in computing income for financial grant purposes.  Good point. Given that, the Ivies will struggle to get top talent that qualifies for an athletic scholarship and NIL at highly regarded schools with a network like Duke and Notre Dame. I’m told our Princeton coaches are a bit distressed after yesterday’s revenue sharing agreement. The kids and the calculations have changed.


Michael.

Michael,


The Ivy League banned athletic scholarships in 1956. Financial aid is based solely on family income with the big three (Harvard, Princeton and Yale) providing most financial aid in the form of grants rather than loans.


There is so little revenue involved in Ivy League sports that I am not sure the recent ruling about colleges being able to pay students matters very much.


Tim

Ok, but if you excell at something, it does help with admissions. And once accepted, grants may well be available.


Ciao

[Tim_Weiman]

Sean,


Princeton’s Board of Trustees recently made three announcements:


1) the target for undergraduates who are eligible for financial aid is 70%
2) the university will continue to show preference for legacy candidates
3) the university will continue to show preference for athletes


These announcements were part of a review the university took following the recent Supreme Court decision on affirmative action at Harvard.


Essentially, Princeton will favor applicants based on low to middle level family income with legacies and athletes being the exception.


The university announced that legacies comprise 10% of the undergraduate student body; athletes are a slightly higher figure.


None of these announcements change financial aid. It is strictly based on family income with the calculation including the income of both parents and the students. Hence, any NIL income will be part of the financial aid calculation and may simply be a trade off between direct financial aid from the university and any NIL income.


The absence of athletic scholarships does make the Ivies different IMO. A scholarship athlete today at, say, Ohio State will not have any NIL income deducted from tuition grants. The NIL income is in addition to the athletic scholarship.


Going forward, I would not be surprised to see changes in how universities and the IRS consider scholarships. How long will it not be considered income?


In any case, revenue sharing won’t provide much if anything for Ivy League golfers or other athletes. As it is today, revenues don’t cover expenses. The universities themselves do.

[Sean_A]

Sean,


Princeton’s Board of Trustees recently made three announcements:


1) the target for undergraduates who are eligible for financial aid is 70%
2) the university will continue to show preference for legacy candidates
3) the university will continue to show preference for athletes


These announcements were part of a review the university took following the recent Supreme Court decision on affirmative action at Harvard.


Essentially, Princeton will favor applicants based on low to middle level family income with legacies and athletes being the exception.


The university announced that legacies comprise 10% of the undergraduate student body; athletes are a slightly higher figure.


None of these announcements change financial aid. It is strictly based on family income with the calculation including the income of both parents and the students. Hence, any NIL income will be part of the financial aid calculation and may simply be a trade off between direct financial aid from the university and any NIL income.


The absence of athletic scholarships does make the Ivies different IMO. A scholarship athlete today at, say, Ohio State will not have any NIL income deducted from tuition grants. The NIL income is in addition to the athletic scholarship.


Going forward, I would not be surprised to see changes in how universities and the IRS consider scholarships. How long will it not be considered income?


In any case, revenue sharing won’t provide much if anything for Ivy League golfers or other athletes. As it is today, revenues don’t cover expenses. The universities themselves do.

I am not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that athletes can be favoured for admissions and that admission may lead to grant funding. It’s good to dispell the rubbish myths about certain schools not considering athletic ability as part of the admission process. And in the case of IVYies, that money is available for qualified athletes. How NIL affects the grants or scholarships is not something I care about. It is what it is. 


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Amateur golf and various branches of the game associated with it have always been a charade or a least on the fringes of a charade with those in leadership roles within governing bodies turning a blind eye or not to circumstances depending on how it likely suited them and their friends and cronies.

Atb

[Michael Morandi]

Sean,


Princeton’s Board of Trustees recently made three announcements:


1) the target for undergraduates who are eligible for financial aid is 70%
2) the university will continue to show preference for legacy candidates
3) the university will continue to show preference for athletes


These announcements were part of a review the university took following the recent Supreme Court decision on affirmative action at Harvard.


Essentially, Princeton will favor applicants based on low to middle level family income with legacies and athletes being the exception.


The university announced that legacies comprise 10% of the undergraduate student body; athletes are a slightly higher figure.


None of these announcements change financial aid. It is strictly based on family income with the calculation including the income of both parents and the students. Hence, any NIL income will be part of the financial aid calculation and may simply be a trade off between direct financial aid from the university and any NIL income.


The absence of athletic scholarships does make the Ivies different IMO. A scholarship athlete today at, say, Ohio State will not have any NIL income deducted from tuition grants. The NIL income is in addition to the athletic scholarship.


Going forward, I would not be surprised to see changes in how universities and the IRS consider scholarships. How long will it not be considered income?


In any case, revenue sharing won’t provide much if anything for Ivy League golfers or other athletes. As it is today, revenues don’t cover expenses. The universities themselves do.

Tim,


You are mostly right, but many of the Prnceton coaches, including men’s golf, have their salaries covered by an endowment via generous donors who set them up. Some travel expenses are also covered through the varsity club and other donor vehicles. But, as you say, ticket revenue and broadcasting rights don’t cover all costs.


M

[Bruce Katona]

The NIL and the now ruling NCAA athletes can be compensated will swirl around for a bit while the dust settles and things work themselves out. 


Admissions Offices @ Schools need to construct an incoming class every year which responds to what the overall institution requires; be a a QB for the football team, pitcher for the baseball team, tuba player for the marching band, students who fit the profile of the institution, legacy (large financial donors who pay lots of the bills) and students at-large who have parents who can pay full tuition.


I terms of golf, how many players - male and female combined - earn enough annually playing professional golf on the PGA/LGPA/DP/Korn Ferry/LPGA Futures and all other smaller tours - 2,500-3,000. These are the best of the best with many others earning a living being a PGA Club professional.


What are the odds of someone making one of 2,500-3,000 spots - pretty small.


What are the odds of turning the Ivy League/Patriot League/NW/Rice/Vandy/etc degree and accumulated contact list of fellow students you met @ school and turning that into success - be in financial or in public service - PRETTY LARGE.


The NFL has had how many quarterbacks over its lifetime - lots.  How many from Harvard -1 (Fitzpatrick).  The United States has
had how many Presidents - 46.  How presidents have a Harvard pedigree - 8.


That Ivy League education really makes a very big difference.

[Pierre_C]

2021 stat NCAA golf programs

(https://www.highschoolgolf.org/college-golf-by-the-numbers/)

US High School Golf: 223,021 players


19,143 make it to college varsity golf (3.3%)


104 college golf teams in PA, most any state.


Men's College Golf
Div. I
301 golf teams:  w/2,941 players (avg. 10 players team)
Avg. 4.5 scholarship for golf team, avg. scholarship $18,015

Div II
221 golf teams: w/2,291 players
Avg. 3.6 scholarship, avg. scholarship $6,495


Men's DIII
321 golf teams: w/3,211 players
0 scholarships


National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics (NAIA)
177 golf teams: w/1,787 golfers
Avg. 10 players per team.
5 scholarship limit, w/ avg. scholarship $7,836.

National Junior College Athletic Association
169 golf teams: w/1,153 golfers
Avg. 7 man roster
8 scholarship limit, avg. $2,137 scholarship


Women's College Golf

Div I.
270 teams, avg. 8 women roster
6 limit scholarship, avg. $18,827 scholarship


Div. II
198 teams, w/1,547 golfers
5.4 limit scholarship, w/avg. $7,986


Div III
248 teams, w/ 1,787 golfers
0 scholarships.


National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics
171 teams, w/ 1,202 golfers
Avg. 7 women roster
5 limit scholarship, avg, $7,733


National Junior College Athletic Association
95 teams w/ 317 golfers
avg. 3 women roster
8 limit scholarships, avg. $2,627