News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2024, 07:39:03 AM »
Erik,
How many here who are chiming in on this thread have ever designed a golf course? 

You can consider it what you want but I have redesigned many golf courses.  Maybe in your mind that doesn’t count. If not, so be it. 

Mike,
How would you answer this question of par fours being inherently better?  You don’t seem to care for par threes.  By the way I agree, many par threes are transition/connector holes.  #15 and even #16 at CP for example serve that purpose.


Mark,


I’m not inclined to dismiss #15 and #16 at Cypress Point as “transition/connector” holes. They seem critical to what makes the course so appealing to play.


Tim
Tim Weiman

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2024, 07:51:55 AM »
I've caddied quite a bit for Elvis Smylie who is 21 and one of the best young pros in Australia.
I asked him at a tournament last year what the hardest holes on the course were.
Predictably he picked the two or three 'toughest' par 4s - which were barely more than drives and short (8,9) irons.


By far the most difficult holes for good players now are the par 5s - because to make a par is to drop a shot to the field. Certainly if your'e considering winning the tournament.
It doesn't apply to true three shooters (of which there are fewer than a handful in Australia) but they are the only holes you have to hit a good drive and a great, longish (200Y plus) second shot. They are the holes where a good players can seperate themselves from the field.


Of course, the higher the handicap the harder they become because they stretch out interminably.


And the only purpose of the 5th at Royal Melbourne and the 15th at Kingston Heath (most people's picks as the two best par 3s in Australia) is to connect the great long holes coming before and after both.


Maybe that's why there are only two par 3s on The Old Course?


Mike,


You certainly know Royal Melbourne far better than I do, but as I said about #15 and #16 at Cypress Point, I not inclined to denigrate #5 by suggesting its only purpose to connect other great holes.


I think #5 is great just like #6.


Ben Sims is probably correct in suggesting Par 4s are inherently better, but we play golf courses not just golf holes and variety of holes, including Par 3s, 4s and 5s, contributes a lot to making the game so interesting and enjoyable.


Tim
Tim Weiman

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2024, 08:14:43 AM »
I remember George Peper’s book about his view of the Top 500 golf holes in the world.  This is some of what he said:

So what are the characteristics of a hole which makes the top 500? George Peper says: "Truth to be told, there are no blueprints, literal or figurative for great holes. They invariably are blends of art and science, nature and man, tradition and heterodoxy, stubborness and compromise, dedicated genius, and dumb luck.’


"That said, the world's great golf holes share certain undeniable qualities. First among them is the element of strategy, the hole's ability to call to us, and say 'play me this way.'


"Alister McKenzie's views on the ideal golf course apply equally to the ideal hole:  He said the hole 'must be pleasureable to the greatest possible number ... must give the average player a fair chance and at the same time require the utmost from the expert who tries for sub-par scores."

Ultimately they had 600 candidate holes and when it was cut down they were left with 125 par 3s; 125 par 5s and 250 par 4s for their Top 500 golf holes in the world list.

So does George Peper’s list and comments answer Ben’s original question?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2024, 10:24:11 AM by Mark_Fine »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #78 on: May 12, 2024, 09:09:41 AM »
Mark,


Probably not.


Tim
Tim Weiman

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #79 on: May 12, 2024, 09:58:35 AM »
Tim,
I agree it probably doesn’t but it offers another perspective from someone who has studied a lot of golf holes.  And for those who say par threes offer no strategy, for some reason he picked 125 based on this statement:


“the world's great golf holes share certain undeniable qualities. First among them is the element of strategy, the hole's ability to call to us, and say 'play me this way.”

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #80 on: May 12, 2024, 09:59:07 AM »

By far the most difficult holes for good players now are the par 5s - because to make a par is to drop a shot to the field. Certainly if your'e considering winning the tournament.
It doesn't apply to true three shooters (of which there are fewer than a handful in Australia) but they are the only holes you have to hit a good drive and a great, longish (200Y plus) second shot. They are the holes where a good players can seperate themselves from the field.



Mike:


This is interesting because back in the old days MacKenzie et al. would have described par-4s as "two shot holes" and what you are really saying is that the best holes for the pros are the holes which ask for two long shots from them, all of which are now called par-5s, because of the equipment gap. 


As you said, "it doesn't apply to true three-shotters."  And the problem today is that a good two-shot hole for the pros is a three-shotter for everyone else.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #81 on: May 12, 2024, 10:03:34 AM »
Tim,
I agree it probably doesn’t but it offers another perspective from someone who has studied a lot of golf holes.  And for those who say par threes offer no strategy, for some reason he picked 125


Mark:


Do you actually think that they picked exactly 125 par 3s and 125 par 5s and exactly 250 par 4s, and that's just how it worked out, and they didn't aim for a certain number of each out of the 600 total holes they identified?


Also, it's a common mistake, but you should learn how to spell George Peper's name correctly.  I've known him since I was 19.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #82 on: May 12, 2024, 10:22:36 AM »
My bad on spelling Peper. Sorry.


Of course George wanted some balance but any holes he selected still had to meet the criteria he and others like Mackenzie talked about.  As such, why have any par threes or par fives been included if par fours are so inherently better? 


Seems the main argument for why par fours are inherently better is because they offer two strategic shots (as Tim said, two is better than one).  But why couldn’t one argue then that the best par fives which offer three strategic shots are inherently better?  Isn’t three better than two?   


On well designed par fives, you know as well as anyone there is strategy off the tee, options to consider for the second and more options to consider for the third or forth 😉.  To complete the task of getting the ball in the hole, several asks of the golfer by the architect have to be addressed.  If you only make these extra asks a few times a round, what is wrong with that.  Variety is the spice of golf 😊


Maybe it is not that par fours are inherently better but that most par threes and par fives are “inherently not as well designed” 😉
« Last Edit: May 12, 2024, 10:28:54 AM by Mark_Fine »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #83 on: May 12, 2024, 10:47:07 AM »
Mark,

I couldn't agree more with your last comment.

A good par 5 can certainly feel like your playing chess not just checkers.  I always enjoy mulling my options and double checking my assumptions, especially as it relates to trouble avoidance and still having a reasonable chance at par, as opposed to most par 4s where as a High capper, you're standing on the tee and realize if you don't execute a good to great tee shot, par is basically off the table.




Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #84 on: May 12, 2024, 11:06:21 AM »
Mark,

I couldn't agree more with your last comment.

A good par 5 can certainly feel like your playing chess not just checkers.  I always enjoy mulling my options and double checking my assumptions, especially as it relates to trouble avoidance and still having a reasonable chance at par, as opposed to most par 4s where as a High capper, you're standing on the tee and realize if you don't execute a good to great tee shot, par is basically off the table.


Kalen-A high handicap player can still make par with a marginal or poor tee shot. Although you didn’t reference penalties for out of bounds or hazards I would tend to agree if that was the case.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #85 on: May 12, 2024, 12:57:15 PM »

Mark,

I couldn't agree more with your last comment.

A good par 5 can certainly feel like your playing chess not just checkers.  I always enjoy mulling my options and double checking my assumptions, especially as it relates to trouble avoidance and still having a reasonable chance at par, as opposed to most par 4s where as a High capper, you're standing on the tee and realize if you don't execute a good to great tee shot, par is basically off the table.



Kalen-A high handicap player can still make par with a marginal or poor tee shot. Although you didn’t reference penalties for out of bounds or hazards I would tend to agree if that was the case.

Tim,

While I would agree, one could make par, its a question of likelihood.

Consider the following 3 comparisons for a 360 yard par 4, vs a 480 yard par 5 (both fairly typical middle distance hole lengths) that someone of my skill playing the whites would typically encounter.

Scenario 1:  Poor Tee shot - 110 yards
Par 4 : 360-110 = 250, now faced with a 250 yard par 3
vs
par 5: 480-110 = 370,  now faced with a 370 yard par 4

Scenario 2: Marginal Tee shot - 160 yards
Par 4: 360-160= 200, now faced with a 200 yard par 3
vs
Par 5: 480-160= 320, now faced with a 320 yard par 4

Scenario 3:  Good Tee shot -210 yards
Par 4: 360-210= 150, now faced with a 150 yard par 3
vs
Par 5: 480-210 = 270, now faced with a 270 yard par 4

In each of these scenarios, I chose the latter scenario without exception in terms of my probability to make par.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #86 on: May 12, 2024, 01:05:47 PM »
Four pages in, I’ll just come out and say it. I don’t enjoy the concept of par. I think its utility as a way of keeping observers aware of where a golfer stands in an event is useful. But as a tool for organizing and characterizing holes? To me it seems antithetical to the variety required for a golf course to be interesting and fun. The formulaic needs of golfers is odd to me.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #87 on: May 12, 2024, 01:11:16 PM »
Four pages in, I’ll just come out and say it. I don’t enjoy the concept of par. I think its utility as a way of keeping observers aware of where a golfer stands in an event is useful. But as a tool for organizing and characterizing holes? To me it seems antithetical to the variety required for a golf course to be interesting and fun. The formulaic needs of golfers is odd to me.

Ben,

I would agree...

But you did you use the concept of par as the main crux to your question...which make no mistake has been a great one, I think its spawned a lot of good thought provoking discussion.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #88 on: May 12, 2024, 01:38:47 PM »
Four pages in, I’ll just come out and say it. I don’t enjoy the concept of par. I think its utility as a way of keeping observers aware of where a golfer stands in an event is useful. But as a tool for organizing and characterizing holes? To me it seems antithetical to the variety required for a golf course to be interesting and fun. The formulaic needs of golfers is odd to me.

Ben,

I would agree...

But you did you use the concept of par as the main crux to your question...which make no mistake has been a great one, I think its spawned a lot of good thought provoking discussion.


Kalen,


Yes that’s a good observation. I think where I am coming from is this, there is a cadence to golf that I enjoy. Tim’s post #37 is perhaps my favorite of this thread. I really enjoyed what he said there. Outside of the “compression and release” aspect of routing golf courses, I never really thought about the cadence of how we play golf based on the tools we use. Or how we adapt our thinking from big to small and then back to big again when we leave the green and start the next hole. Two shot golf holes of vastly different length, strategy, shape, and scale strike me as an ideal way to create a golf course with this in mind. And this is why I think the two shot golf hole is inherently superior.


I’ll admit that those lines are blurred based on the vastly disparate distances we hit the ball these days.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #89 on: May 12, 2024, 02:09:41 PM »
Ben,
It has been an interesting thread.  I mentioned your comment about "two shot holes being superior" to my wife (I am sure MANY others here might have the same response she had) - what is a two shot hole  :) 


I am sure you know that the average 15 handicapper hits about 4 greens a round in regulation so that means about half of golfers hit only a couple at most.  By definition, most all holes for them (outside of par threes) are more than two shot holes. ;)




Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #90 on: May 12, 2024, 05:28:50 PM »
The only measure I use these days is greens in regulation.  And yes, that acknowledges the concept of par.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #91 on: May 12, 2024, 06:40:44 PM »
Craig,
Which is why I am such a strong advocate for more (shorter teeing locations) so we can raise that number of “greens in regulation” for more golfers, speed up play, and help more golfers have fun.  We will be opening our new forward tees soon at Lehigh. I could name at least 30 golfers at the club who can’t wait.  In fact I believe the number of “nine” hole golfers has surpassed the number of 18 holers on the women’s side in part I because of anticipation of these new tees.  Sorry to get off topic.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #92 on: May 12, 2024, 07:45:18 PM »
Mark, why don't we just start them with a 15ft putt? Better yet, lets put the ball in the hole for them?  No matter how you slice it that ain't a "green in regulation." 


Back on topic...I love the strategy of a par four.  Where do I place my first shot?  How has that set up my 2nd shot?  Lots of strategic thought. 
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #93 on: May 12, 2024, 08:06:47 PM »
Craig,
What is a green in regulation? 

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #94 on: May 12, 2024, 08:21:45 PM »
Mark, I think you know the answer...
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #95 on: May 12, 2024, 08:35:45 PM »

By far the most difficult holes for good players now are the par 5s - because to make a par is to drop a shot to the field. Certainly if your'e considering winning the tournament.
It doesn't apply to true three shooters (of which there are fewer than a handful in Australia) but they are the only holes you have to hit a good drive and a great, longish (200Y plus) second shot. They are the holes where a good players can seperate themselves from the field.



Mike:


This is interesting because back in the old days MacKenzie et al. would have described par-4s as "two shot holes" and what you are really saying is that the best holes for the pros are the holes which ask for two long shots from them, all of which are now called par-5s, because of the equipment gap. 


As you said, "it doesn't apply to true three-shotters."  And the problem today is that a good two-shot hole for the pros is a three-shotter for everyone else.


Tom,


Not so much the best holes - although there are many great long 'two-shot' holes in Australia which are par 5s - RM 2,4 & 12, Yarra Yarra 16 and 18 Metro 8, Gunnamatta 1, - but the most testing holes for pros simply because they are the hardest holes to make 4. And to win tournaments you have to make 4s on the par 5s.
Certainly the 'easier' ones.
Even the long ones here - Kingston Heath 14 for example - are now drives and long irons. Formerly that was the role of the long 4s there including 1,16 and 17.
At the World Cup at KH a few years ago John Rahm drove it so far up 17 (which was a par 5 until 1968) he could see the green!
And Thomas Pieters drove Nico Colsaerts 90 yards off the 1st green (also a 5 in 1968) in the Foursomes round.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #96 on: May 12, 2024, 08:38:18 PM »
Craig,
On our par four 4th hole at Lehigh, the current forward tee requires about 120 yard forced carry over a stream.  The hole is about 275 yards long from this tee.  Most all of the forward tee players in the women’s nine hole league can’t make the carry but if they go in the water off the tee they are allowed to drop on the other side taking a one stroke penalty. They purposely try to hit their tee ball in the water off the tee even though they know they won’t make the carry.  The reason they do this because if they lay up short they feel there is a good chance of chunking their second shot in the water and having to take that penalty and drop anyway :(


The new forward tee we just added will still require a forced carry off the tee over the stream but only about 70-80 yards.  They now should have a good chance to be able to clear the hazard and maybe even knock their second shot on the green.  And despite what some say, players who do this will call it a “green in regulation” :)

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #97 on: May 12, 2024, 09:36:40 PM »
I think it depends a lot on your handicap. Par 5's were always my scoring birdie holes, par 3's were tough depending on the recovery shot and par 4's were always the hardest. I remember a course in Highland Park, Illinois that had 11 par 4's in a row, omg, the most boring I ever played.


Pebble Beach, I loved the par 3's.


But I think it is entirely dependent on your hadicap.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #98 on: May 13, 2024, 01:13:28 PM »
Four pages in, I’ll just come out and say it. I don’t enjoy the concept of par. I think its utility as a way of keeping observers aware of where a golfer stands in an event is useful. But as a tool for organizing and characterizing holes? To me it seems antithetical to the variety required for a golf course to be interesting and fun. The formulaic needs of golfers is odd to me.


It is interesting to contemplate par and what it really means. Thinking of the Old Course, you've got 9, 10, 12, 18 at least are all really 3.5 par. Then on the other end you have 4 and 13 which are more like 4.5s. 17 is almost just a straight up 5, but we can lump it in with the 4.5s. Then the actual par 5s, depending on the wind, one of them (for the pros at any rate) is probably a 4.5 and the other a 5. So even though there are "only" two par 3s and two par 5s, the variation in hole length there is really pretty good. But it does seem kind of funky to put 9 and 17 in the same bucket of par 4.


But I think one thing that affects this discussion is par 3s are really either 3s or 3.5s. There are not really any 2.5 holes. Even a hole that's 100 yards is still going to average pretty close to 3. It's hard to get it up and down from 100 yards, even for the best in the world. Similarly, for the par 5s, those are either "easy", in which case they're more like 4.5s or they're difficult and are really 5s. I don't think there are any 5.5 holes out there. Or very few to speak of anyway. So par 3s get to be 3-3.5. 5s get to be 4.5-5 and par 4s have a much wider range of 3.5 to 4.5. Since lots of people like half par holes, the par 4s have an intrinsic benefit there.


The other thing is we've talked a lot about strategic holes/shots in this thread. I personally don't feel there's a whole lot of strategy to an approach shot. Not much beyond possibly which side of the hole do I want to miss on if I do miss. That might be a few yards one way or the other. I guess you might have a choice of whether to fly it or run it on, but these days, most people fly it on - certainly in my golfing circles. Tee shots are really where the strategy can come into play though. So par 3s I really don't think can manage much on the strategy side. They do though get to be played on some of the more extreme terrain (15 and 16 at CPC for example) and I do think frequently people count how pretty a hole is as a part of how good a hole is. I think it's pretty hard to come up with a par 5 that has good strategic options on both drive and second shot, so when someone does it, it stands out. I suspect that's a portion of how par 3s and par 5s wind up on best hole lists. Par 4s, you can build strategy in relatively easily (I assume anyway - I'm not an architect).

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are par fours inherently better?
« Reply #99 on: May 13, 2024, 02:12:36 PM »
Four pages in, I’ll just come out and say it. I don’t enjoy the concept of par. I think its utility as a way of keeping observers aware of where a golfer stands in an event is useful. But as a tool for organizing and characterizing holes? To me it seems antithetical to the variety required for a golf course to be interesting and fun. The formulaic needs of golfers is odd to me.


It is interesting to contemplate par and what it really means. Thinking of the Old Course, you've got 9, 10, 12, 18 at least are all really 3.5 par. Then on the other end you have 4 and 13 which are more like 4.5s. 17 is almost just a straight up 5, but we can lump it in with the 4.5s. Then the actual par 5s, depending on the wind, one of them (for the pros at any rate) is probably a 4.5 and the other a 5. So even though there are "only" two par 3s and two par 5s, the variation in hole length there is really pretty good. But it does seem kind of funky to put 9 and 17 in the same bucket of par 4.


But I think one thing that affects this discussion is par 3s are really either 3s or 3.5s. There are not really any 2.5 holes. Even a hole that's 100 yards is still going to average pretty close to 3. It's hard to get it up and down from 100 yards, even for the best in the world. Similarly, for the par 5s, those are either "easy", in which case they're more like 4.5s or they're difficult and are really 5s. I don't think there are any 5.5 holes out there. Or very few to speak of anyway. So par 3s get to be 3-3.5. 5s get to be 4.5-5 and par 4s have a much wider range of 3.5 to 4.5. Since lots of people like half par holes, the par 4s have an intrinsic benefit there.


The other thing is we've talked a lot about strategic holes/shots in this thread. I personally don't feel there's a whole lot of strategy to an approach shot. Not much beyond possibly which side of the hole do I want to miss on if I do miss. That might be a few yards one way or the other. I guess you might have a choice of whether to fly it or run it on, but these days, most people fly it on - certainly in my golfing circles. Tee shots are really where the strategy can come into play though. So par 3s I really don't think can manage much on the strategy side. They do though get to be played on some of the more extreme terrain (15 and 16 at CPC for example) and I do think frequently people count how pretty a hole is as a part of how good a hole is. I think it's pretty hard to come up with a par 5 that has good strategic options on both drive and second shot, so when someone does it, it stands out. I suspect that's a portion of how par 3s and par 5s wind up on best hole lists. Par 4s, you can build strategy in relatively easily (I assume anyway - I'm not an architect).


Michael,


Good post. A lot to chew on. Let me just respond to one point, specifically your suggestion that Par 3s can’t manage much on the strategy side, a view that most here appear to accept.


But, a while back someone did a post criticizing the Redan hole at Mountain Lake. Essentially, the poster argued that this version of the Redan was too easy and that the logical shot was just to aim and fire directly at the flag when it is on the lower left side of the green.


The argument has some merit IMO, but it also raises the question: for whom is the Mountain Lake Redan too easy? Is it too easy for the low single digit player? Probably. Is it too easy for the mid handicap player less confident in his ability to control distance? Probably not. For these less skilled and less confident players aiming out to the right of the green might be the better play even if he finds himself putting from potential three putt territory.


I guess my point is simply, sure, most Par 3s don’t have strategy, but some do. #15 and #16 at Cypress Point probably provide one of each.
Tim Weiman

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back