Nine or not?

[archie_struthers]

 




Say you have an incredible site but only room to build 12-13 holes> Do you build a great nine holer or just say , oh well?

[Charlie Goerges]

If the site is truly great, build it. I might wish there were room for more, but console myself with a couple trips around.

[Sean_A]

Say you have an incredible site but only room to build 12-13 holes> Do you build a great nine holer or just say , oh well?

It would be ideal if two loops running back to the house could be created…a 9 holer and a 3-4 holer. If not possible, build however many holes you can without long transitions between holes.


Ciao

[James Reader]

Surely the answer should be to build a great 12 or 13 hole course. Is there really any sensible reason why a course would be better stopping at just 9 holes if there are 3 or 4 other great ones out there? It works for Shiskine.

[Ben Stephens]

It can be done in many different ways.




- 9 hole course with practice facility and practice areas/Himalayas green


- 9 hole reversible nine which will prob need more space than a straightforward 9 hole course with some holes with double greens


- 18 greens that it can be played like a 18 hole par 3 course or 6/9/12 hole courses with multiple configurations (rather complex but works in theory)


- 6 to 12 holes depending on size of plot


and so on .........


Anything is possible what ever size land or shape you get

[Tom_Doak]

The best thing about a great nine hole course is you get a second crack at all the holes if you want.


The business case for it is harder, of course -- operating costs are well over 50% of an 18-holer because you need the same key people on staff, unless you are doing some of those jobs yourself.  So the location is crucial to making the business work.  But you can create something special without having to come up with a gimmick.  Nine holes is enough for golf.

[Ben Stephens]

The best thing about a great nine hole course is you get a second crack at all the holes if you want.


The business case for it is harder, of course -- operating costs are well over 50% of an 18-holer because you need the same key people on staff, unless you are doing some of those jobs yourself.  So the location is crucial to making the business work.  But you can create something special without having to come up with a gimmick.  Nine holes is enough for golf.

Having a driving range alongside a 9 hole course helps as the range would be the main money generator to keep the upkeep of the course. There are rarities such as Mildenhall, Flempton, The Dunes and Sweetens Cove that the course itself is sufficient enough to keep going and financial support from members/people outside

[James Reader]

Tom, would you see a really strong 12/13 hole course as a ‘gimmick’? It would be unusual, certainly, but it seems to me that, probably more so than at any time since the late 19th century, golfers might be ready to accept an ‘odd’ number of holes if they were really good. Some of the new short courses are moving away from the 9/18 hole standard. Isn’t there room for that to be done on a full-length course?



I agree that nine holes can be enough for golf but if 18 isn’t too many, then why not 13? I can understand that it might be a tough sell to whoever is paying for the course to be built but presumably they could charge more for a 13-hole round than for 9, so couldn’t the economics make sense? And, without using the ‘gimmick’ word (with its connotations of something being done solely to attract attention), wouldn’t the opportunity to be recognised as the best 13 hole course in the World be a social media marketer’s dream?

[Thomas Dai]

A reversible 9-hole course with a modest low spec clubhouse would be fine by me.
Atb

[archie_struthers]

 


Unfortunately it would have to be more of a high end getaway with boutique hotel and affiliated real estate development. But the nine hole golf course (or 12) has potential to be spectacular

[Matt MacIver]

Unfortunately it would have to be more of a high end getaway with boutique hotel and affiliated real estate development. But the nine hole golf course (or 12) has potential to be spectacular

I think in this scenario it would be almost easier to build, market and “get away with” a 9+3 hole routing: good for beginners, time contraints, couples with one primary golfer as well as Golfers.  If the spectacular part includes gorgeous views, allow non-golfers an hour each day to enjoy, too; charge them high priced drinks as compensation for blocking the sheet. 

[archie_struthers]

 


Aren't high priced drinks obligatory anymore  :'(


Maybe a "dive bar"  as a compliment ...then I'd feel fulfilled

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think if you can get 12 holes it can work okay, probably would avoid 13. So 9 12 or 18 is a working combo's.


TD is right about the costs, they run costs for 9 are like 75% (if it was 18).


Reversible courses cost a lot to keep setting up everytime (day change), you can't really play them the same day unless your the only ones on the course. Personally I think the reversible course is the worst idea in golf. Would love to see a good one that works and be convinced differently, I just think you always end up with one/something inferior and then you compromise on the other.

[Tim_Weiman]

Surely the answer should be to build a great 12 or 13 hole course. Is there really any sensible reason why a course would be better stopping at just 9 holes if there are 3 or 4 other great ones out there? It works for Shiskine.

James,


My preference would be to build 9 holes and a separate 3-4 hole practice area. If I am not mistaken that is kind of what the Renaissance Club has with the three holes that were built before permission to build a few holes along the water.


Maybe Tom can comment if my understanding is correct and how the Renaissance Club members like the arrangement.


Tim

[Ben Hollerbach]

Trev Dormer has a new 12 hole project about to start in Dakota City Nebraska. It's a redesign of the current 9 hole course at Old Dane to make 2, 6 hole loops. I believe there will be an option to play it as a 9 hole routing (1-4 + 8-12) as well.

[Charlie Goerges]

I like the style of that map Ben.


If the 12 holes are better than what 9 holes would be, yeah, go ahead. But In general, I still like the idea of 9 better and having a little elbow room. And/or maybe add a range.

[Ben Stephens]

Trev Dormer has a new 12 hole project about to start in Dakota City Nebraska. It's a redesign of the current 9 hole course at Old Dane to make 2, 6 hole loops. I believe there will be an option to play it as a 9 hole routing (1-4 + 8-12) as well.

From a GCA standpoint even this is a lovely drawing - I would say that this layout is a bit dangerous as the holes are very tight together and safety margins are breached.


I can imagine playing down 11 when playing 12 and down 11 when playing 7. On a tight space it is best to keep the holes straight rather than creating doglegs.


Would have 9 holes rather than 12 in this space mainly from a safety perspective.

[Kalen Braley]

Reversible courses cost a lot to keep setting up everytime (day change), you can't really play them the same day unless your the only ones on the course. Personally I think the reversible course is the worst idea in golf. Would love to see a good one that works and be convinced differently, I just think you always end up with one/something inferior and then you compromise on the other.

Adrian,


While I haven't played it, I thought the consensus view on The Loop was that it is excellent?

[Dan_Callahan]

A 9-hole course that has a great practice facility vs a 13-hole course with no practice facility ... I'm going to the 9-hole course 10 times out of 10.

[archie_struthers]

 


Ben that's a nice post on the 12 hole course. Have always thought 12 seemed a good compromise and you could play two six hole loops. Works for me in many ways. It's enough golf for many and if you want to play match it works also. Time frame shortened and walking might be more prevalent.


Of course practice facilities are integral to a really good golf environment, but more and more I'm thinking room for short irons and a bank of simulators might be sufficient. I've seen some pretty impressive ones lately and practicing on them isn't so bad. Maintenance costs also greatly reduced and with people hitting driver 300 it takes up a lot of ground.


Having some fun doing a routing on this site and it's been a long time since Twisted Dune. Hopefully my skills will be improved after all this study. Worse case scenario have met a few pretty good architects in the last twenty years to lean on if needed. Thanks for all the nice replies really enjoy all the imput

[Peter Bowman]

I'm very much a nonconformist and I've often felt 12-13 holes would be ideal length and time for golf for a lot of golfers--and potentially happier children and spouses as the golfers are home away for less time.

If the land allows 12 awesome holes, build awesome holes, especially if groups of 3's can be rotated as the official Nine of the day/week.
I actually feel there will be a bigger market for abbreviated golf courses 12-14 holes in length. 9 isnt enough.  18 is often too much for many people. This should appeal to younger Millennials, Gen Y and Z

[Peter Sayegh]

A 9-hole course that has a great practice facility vs a 13-hole course with no practice facility ... I'm going to the 9-hole course 10 times out of 10.

I have the absolute opposite opinion.
I believe we're both right in our preference. 

[Tim Martin]

A 9-hole course that has a great practice facility vs a 13-hole course with no practice facility ... I'm going to the 9-hole course 10 times out of 10.

I have the absolute opposite opinion.
I believe we're both right in our preference. 

Peter-I’m with you. Give me the 13 hole course.

[MCirba]

Archie,


Don't let the arbitrary 9 hole limit limit you.

[Mike_Clayton]

The best thing about a great nine hole course is you get a second crack at all the holes if you want.


The business case for it is harder, of course -- operating costs are well over 50% of an 18-holer because you need the same key people on staff, unless you are doing some of those jobs yourself.  So the location is crucial to making the business work.  But you can create something special without having to come up with a gimmick.  Nine holes is enough for golf.

Tom,


I asked someone this question a few weeks ago. If you could be a member at a 6-hole course but those six holes were 1-6 at Royal Melbourne West or a member at a sandbelt Doak 6 where would you play?