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Joe_Tucholski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« on: April 26, 2024, 07:02:51 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SMB9qT94b4


Definitely appreciate the following line.
"Golf Club Atlas...theres a lot of people talking out of their ass about golf course architecture and they don't really understand anything about why those decisions were made."




Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2024, 07:45:46 PM »
"Golf Club Atlas...theres a lot of people talking out of their ass about golf course architecture and they don't really understand anything about why those decisions were made."
It's a very fair criticism... of me in particular 😅

Pierre_C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2024, 10:10:58 PM »
Great interview. Thanks Joe. I'm worried Tom doesn't wear enough sunscreen lotion.
(2^82589933) - 1

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2024, 12:28:33 AM »
I was using my whole ass.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2024, 08:23:53 AM »
I was using my whole ass.


Matthew,


You may not be aware that for more than 25 years Tom Doak has been very gracious sharing his time and thoughts at golf course project sites where he has work underway.


Golf architecture for me has been a love of mine since I was about three years old, but following it has been a hobby not my profession. What I have learned is that there are countless details that must be considered in building a course and knowing Tom I’m pretty sure that is what he meant.


It is pretty hard to know what was behind critical decisions or even minor decisions unless one is part of the project team.


Overall, it was a good interview, though probably nothing new for those of us who have known Tom and followed his work over the years. For example, I have never felt there was a “Tom Doak course”. Instead, he has always approached each project trying to do the best that can be done at that site.


One highlight of the interview that did intrigue me: building a hole inspired by #13 at Pine Valley. That would be interesting to see.


Tim
Tim Weiman

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2024, 10:33:28 AM »
Oh don't mind me; I'm just trying to be self-deprecating.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2024, 11:10:37 AM »
I was using my whole ass.


Matthew,


You may not be aware that for more than 25 years Tom Doak has been very gracious sharing his time and thoughts at golf course project sites where he has work underway.


Golf architecture for me has been a love of mine since I was about three years old.


Tim
Three years old? Wow. I was still trying to perfect my curveball at 18 months.

Tim, nice job condescending to Matt while still highlighting your syncophancy and meetings with Doak.

Anyone else notice that Tom made sure GCA was specifically mentioned in his opinion of armchair architects?

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2024, 01:40:05 PM »
Live by the sword and die by the sword. When I was in the AF, it was both highly rewarding and sometimes ridiculous sitting in the airplane at an air show and talking to the people standing in line to see the jet. There’s well-meaning hobbyists, kids with curiosity, and the occasional fanboy that gets too fresh. I’m guilty of having been all of those when I’ve interacted with golf architects and I’m okay admitting that. As long as the golf architects admit that the positives of interest in their work outweigh the negative.

All that to say, a hit dog barks. Woof woof. :)
« Last Edit: April 27, 2024, 01:54:25 PM by Ben Sims »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2024, 06:59:57 PM »
I was using my whole ass.


Matthew,


You may not be aware that for more than 25 years Tom Doak has been very gracious sharing his time and thoughts at golf course project sites where he has work underway.


Golf architecture for me has been a love of mine since I was about three years old.


Tim
Three years old? Wow. I was still trying to perfect my curveball at 18 months.

Tim, nice job condescending to Matt while still highlighting your syncophancy and meetings with Doak.

Anyone else notice that Tom made sure GCA was specifically mentioned in his opinion of armchair architects?


Peter,


I’m hardly the only GCA participant Tom has spent time with. Pretty sure it is quite a few people and dates back 25-30 years.


Tim
Tim Weiman

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2024, 06:14:14 AM »
There are a huge amount of intelligent posters and posts on this website. Over the years, I have learned plenty here; or at least been given good food for thought.


However, even among the most intelligent of thinkers who don’t work in the industry, comments are often purely theoretical and idealistic. The practicality is sometimes a huge gap.


None of that matters. It is good to educate as well as learn.


The only thing that annoys me are the GCA fans (not necessarily talking about this website) who are militant in their beliefs. There is definitely an element of narrow-mindedness and group think with some commentators out there. It is often only the deeper thinkers that get past that.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2024, 11:14:51 AM »
I came to this site as a learner. I have played a lot of golf courses in many different locations, but I should never speak as an architectural authority. What I enjoy most is playing a hole and asking myself or a playing partner, "Why did he put a bunker here?" "Why is the green shaped this way?" "Could he have done something else?"


When I played 14 at Shinnecock and 13 at Pacific Dunes, I thought they were two of the most natural holes I've ever played. I marveled at the architect's restraint in not doing too much with them. This site also asks those questions. We are fortunate that so many architects and knowledgeable people post here. I spend many happy hours reading.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2024, 02:52:10 PM »
I didn't think Tom was out of line at all.  At this point in his career with what's he done and put in the ground, he's more than justified to feel that way.

In tech, I've interacted with some wicked crazy smart people and seen them say same about a very capable peer, much less a half-informed fan boy.  :)

P.S. I'd be more curious on his comment a few minutes later when he said "we're all drastically overrated".  I wouldn't think the false humility thing would be one his personal traits.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2024, 02:53:56 PM by Kalen Braley »

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2024, 03:43:36 PM »
P.S. I'd be more curious on his comment a few minutes later when he said "we're all drastically overrated".  I wouldn't think the false humility thing would be one his personal traits.

I suspect (but am still talking out of my ass) that there is a curious interplay between limited work, marketing/branding, and raw talent. Charlie Day talked about something like this recently on the Conan podcast: https://youtu.be/8dizr2Bsh_E?si=4BP0e6wNRQ4LHcRs&t=391

Quote
Charlie Day: We shot that pilot, they picked it up. They said, "we'll give you seven episodes." And then we did seven. And then they were like "okay, we're going to cancel the show unless you can get a big name attached," And Danny DeVito had seen the show and liked it, and then, here we are... it's still going.

Conan O'Brien: That's fascinating to me. I mean, you hear stories about: "You need a big name!" and... I always thought, like, it almost sounds apocryphal, like it's this thing from the 1940s or 50s, but it's true!

I assume that Tom is getting at something like this. That a lot of the guys he works with are really impressive, but that the business puts a ton of value on the big name being on a course. But that's just a theory... I'm always curious about the interplay between success, fame, being open and honest about things, and how being influential usually just means you're still a normal, often flawed person, but people expect you to never make a faux pas. The interplay between being successful, likely for having really good opinions, but not being able to voice them as much for professional reasons, definitely seems weird to me, but is also really interesting.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2024, 03:58:17 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2024, 04:04:22 PM »
I thought the video and interview was really well done.


None of us know anything with regards to golf course architecture at the end of the day. Which is what makes Tom's participation here so special.


Have there been any threads on Sandglass? I feel like this is the first I've heard of the course. Assuming it's a private club?
H.P.S.

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2024, 04:57:43 PM »
Good ideas can come from anyone.  The best ones come from the laymen who are more curious than knowing.   The worst come from those who think they know, often offering input based on what they’ve recently seen from another course in a different climate, on different soils…or on Instagram…on and on. 


I really enjoy going out on the courses we are working on with people who don’t claim to have any golf architecture knowledge at all.   We aren’t the designers but we help connect the dots and it’s always interesting to me to learn what catches their eye.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2024, 06:10:33 PM »
I’m offended as I fashion myself to be one the top two dimensional architects not on the business.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2024, 06:22:31 PM »
I came to this site as a learner. I have played a lot of golf courses in many different locations, but I should never speak as an architectural authority. What I enjoy most is playing a hole and asking myself or a playing partner, "Why did he put a bunker here?" "Why is the green shaped this way?" "Could he have done something else?"

This site also asks those questions. We are fortunate that so many architects and knowledgeable people post here. I spend many happy hours reading.
Tommy, thank you for the post.

It's a great reminder why many of us visit this site.

My observations and questions were genuine and honest but posted indelicately....and your tagline quotes always highlight I can do better.
Peter.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2024, 07:31:34 PM »
Peter S:


I don't think we've ever met, and you might want to ask some of the people who have met me, what sort of person I am, instead of focusing on a throwaway comment in an interview.


I've spent COUNTLESS hours online on Golf Club Atlas over the past 25 years. 


I met my wife at right about the same time, and in hindsight, I should have spent a lot more time with her and a lot less time here.  [And each and every one of you might want to think about that, in your own lives.]  The only reason I'm here is because I am fairly well obsessed with what I do and trying to get better, and I prefer to interact with hobbyists who might say something interesting or new, than with fellow professionals who are practical and set in their ways.  But, for every comment that makes me think, there are a lot that do not, so in the sum of things it has probably been a giant waste of my time, unless there was some value to others in my having answered 100,000 questions from across the board.


I will happily stand by the comment that even people who are interested in golf architecture really don't understand the nature of what designers do, day in and day out.  I've been complimented hundreds of times on what a genius I must be to perfect the design of a course in my mind before we have built anything.  The reality is that I've built a talented team over the years, and it takes the efforts of several of them over a period of 6-12 months to create the finished product, refining it all the way.  My job is to get them started in the right direction, and to edit their contributions to achieve what I think is the best possible outcome.  I'm not underrating the significance of that, but that is far different from the cliche compliment.  That was the point of my response to Michael's question.  And, incidentally, Bill Coore says the exact same thing.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2024, 08:25:18 PM »
One thing I would like to comment on, is Michael's suggestion that I am not afraid to compare myself to Alister MacKenzie.


I don't really understand what is supposed to be controversial about that.  Didn't Jack Nicklaus measure himself by the career of Bobby Jones, and didn't Tiger Woods measure himself against Jack Nicklaus?  Everyone accepts that they are trying to be great.  I don't understand why trying to be great at golf course architecture makes one an egotist, which is what was implied. 


I've never said anywhere that I thought I was better than Alister MacKenzie, or Donald Ross, or any of the old dead guys except for Seth Raynor.  I think I've had a few more creative thoughts over my career than Seth Raynor did.




Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2024, 08:36:20 PM »
There sure has been a lot of retrospection about this website and its impact/usefulness of late.


Personally, it’s been a huge net positive to my life.

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2024, 08:53:15 PM »
I’ve been on this site for 20 years or so. I’m a spasmodic visitor and even less regular poster. On a knowledge balance I’m a taker from this site. I have an interest in Golf & Golf Course Architecture and 3 people have added to this more than any others. Paul Daley via his books, conversations and introducing me to GCA, Mike Clayton via books and podcasts & Tom Doak via books, podcasts and this site.


Have whatever view you like of Tom the person but he has earned the right to adjudicate on the knowledge level exhibited on these boards. For what it’s worth I’ve only met Tom in person once, it happened to be over a meal at a GCA event. I could not have enjoyed the evening more, he and others in our vicinity were great company.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2024, 09:21:08 PM by Sean Walsh »

Joe_Tucholski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2024, 10:09:16 PM »
I probably shouldn't have included the quote I did, as it's not at all what the video is about but I couldn't help but laugh when I heard it.  The next statement about 2D vs 3D and exact distances vs objective of a hole is way more interesting.


I'm definitely one of those who doesn't know golf architecture and I certainly don't understand why decisions are made during the building/construction process of a course.  Not sure how I was lucky enough to get an account.  Like others I appreciate the many members (especially Tom) who post on this site who do work in the business across the various sectors of golf and golf courses.



It is pretty impressive the impact this site and the opinions some folks on this site have had.  I figure most people interested in golf are aware of golfclubatlas.com and I feel confident everyone on the site loves golf and the courses they play on.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2024, 12:42:57 AM »
It's a lovely tribute to Tom Doak.  It's wonderful he is still busy building interesting new golf courses.  It would have been nice to see better views of the subject golf course, but I assume the film crew was limited in what they could show.

As far as the GCA stuff is concerned, for whatever reason this reminded me of a funny scene in the movie "City Slickers".  The three city slickers are sizing up the trail boss Curly for the first time.  Rumors run wild...

"This guy's a cowboy, one of the last real men...we're trained ponies.  It will do us good to live in his world for a while."

I originally intended this to be funny and included the YouTube movie clip of the scene.  Instead, I'll just say that GCA has enhanced my life immensely and I am very grateful.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2024, 03:50:06 AM by John Kirk »

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2024, 06:19:50 AM »
Everybody speaks, ultimately, to what they know.

Streamsong opened in 2012 to much fanfare as one of the largest new builds in the past twenty years coming out of the late aughts fall off - with plenty of architectural and construction bite to discuss, to boot.

The entire thread was about a f&^%*@$ HOT DOG.

Res ipsa loquitur.

My jaw hit the floor when Tom mentioned, at the very end of the interview, about golf courses being an emotional safe space for men. I've thought about that comment daily ever since.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2024, 06:26:26 AM by Kyle Harris »
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Originals - Tom Doaks Spectacular Golfing Mind
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2024, 11:37:05 AM »
Peter S:


I don't think we've ever met, and you might want to ask some of the people who have met me, what sort of person I am, instead of focusing on a throwaway comment in an interview.


I've spent COUNTLESS hours online on Golf Club Atlas over the past 25 years. 


The only reason I'm here is because I am fairly well obsessed with what I do and trying to get better, and I prefer to interact with hobbyists who might say something interesting or new, than with fellow professionals who are practical and set in their ways.  But, for every comment that makes me think, there are a lot that do not, so in the sum of things it has probably been a giant waste of my time, unless there was some value to others in my having answered 100,000 questions from across the board.


I will happily stand by the comment that even people who are interested in golf architecture really don't understand the nature of what designers do, day in and day out. That was the point of my response to Michael's question.
Tom,
No, we have never met and that fact had no bearing on why I asked the question.
In the video, the interviewer was either unaware of GCA or its pronunciation was unclear. Either way, I was a little surprised you highlighted GCA in your response. I assume the critics of you and your craft have many outlets. Just thought you mentioning GCA specifically as opposed to armchair critics in general was strange. That plain and that simple.

As for your participation on this forum, I feel terrible you had to defend it.
I've been in this forum for twenty years and have read how candid and open you are. Your posts and responses have educated me over that time.
My "rated" courses played hovers below the Mendoza Line yet there have been so many times you've answered my (inane) questions in the DG over the years so I hope I haven't soured you on this place.

P.S. I admire that your posts/responses are grammatically sound.