Miakka Golf Club new turf

[Rob Marshall]

I heard Paul Azinger on the radio tonight talking about the new course he is working on along with Fry/Straka. They are using a turf called "stadium" and it will be the first time it's been used in the states. Anyone familiar with this grass?

[David_Tepper]

https://miakkagc.com/

"It will be one of the first courses in Florida to use Stadium Zoysia on the tees and fairways to create an immaculate playing surface."

[Rob Marshall]

Looks amazing on the website.

[David Cronan]

Looks amazing on the website.

I could be wrong but it looks quite amazing because they are computer renderings on what they're hoping to achieve.


Hope they do so....

[Tim Gavrich]

Looks amazing on the website.

The paragraph description of the course on the site first mentions that it will tip out at 7,700 yards, and finishes by saying it will be "ideally suited for walking." I admire the emphasis on walkability, but is this something of a contradiction?


The course at PGA Frisco that is going to host the '27 PGA is like that; its routing* is walkable (walking-only, in fact) in that greens are close to the next tee area(s). But it takes 5 hours to play because 99% of golfers are walking 75-100 yards past the back two or three sets of tees in order to get to their tee on almost every single hole.

[Pierre_C]

Miakka GC layout.. 7.700 yds is a long walk. From the layout, green to tee box appears to be a short walk; I suspect it's a longer walk from back tees to fairway.


Source: Layout & yardage book

[Connor Lewis]

I have walked the property- it’s very special. Strong elevation changes with natural creek beds running through the property that will play alongside the river.


Jason gave me a tour with Azinger a little more than a year ago.

[John Emerson]

Looks amazing on the website.

They are the breeders and developers of that grass...of course it looks good! They need to sell it! As a hard rule when it comes to seed/sod cultivars, never ever listen to the recommendations of a distributor or salesperson. Anecdotes are not the plural of data also. NTEP.org is the first place one should go before buying any plant material.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Looks amazing on the website.

They are the breeders and developers of that grass...of course it looks good! They need to sell it! As a hard rule when it comes to seed/sod cultivars, never ever listen to the recommendations of a distributor or salesperson. Anecdotes are not the plural of data also. NTEP.org is the first place one should go before buying any plant material.

I'm not sure who "they" are in your reference, but Bladerunner Farms out of Texas is the actual breeder & developer.


Bladerunner Farms - Zoysia Grass Sod


Also, while NTEP offers a nice baseline for data, it's certainly not the end all. I've seen (and managed) some of NTEPs most highly prized grasses only to see them fail miserably & miss their NTEP marks, so much so that one isn't used in Florida anymore especially considering all the new projects happening. One of NTEPS most highly "rated" putting green turf types isn't even in the conversation anymore.


Best advice for grass selection? Get a few pallets or regrass a tee, regrass a putting green & test the turf on the site-specific course for 2-3 years. I would not rely solely on NTEP & data trials. Too much money, pressure & expectations to put full faith in a trial/testing study.

[John Emerson]

Looks amazing on the website.

They are the breeders and developers of that grass...of course it looks good! They need to sell it! As a hard rule when it comes to seed/sod cultivars, never ever listen to the recommendations of a distributor or salesperson. Anecdotes are not the plural of data also. NTEP.org is the first place one should go before buying any plant material.

I'm not sure who "they" are in your reference, but Bladerunner Farms out of Texas is the actual breeder & developer.


Yes, exactly what I said. As in "they" (blade runner) developed that cultivar of zoysiagrass


Bladerunner Farms - Zoysia Grass Sod


Also, while NTEP offers a nice baseline for data, it's certainly not the end all. I've seen (and managed) some of NTEPs most highly prized grasses only to see them fail miserably & miss their NTEP marks, so much so that one isn't used in Florida anymore especially considering all the new projects happening. One of NTEPS most highly "rated" putting green turf types isn't even in the conversation anymore.


The rate at which genetically improved breeding material is developed, as of the last couple decades,  outpaces the implementation. Perfect example - tall fescue cultivars that finished in the top statistical category from only 5 years ago were significantly outperformed by some of the newest varieties in the trial that just ended. Does this make the NTEP data worthless? Absolutely not. Improvements are happening too fast for the turfgrass managers to keep up. Another issue is the lack of testing sites. It is impossible to have trials in every type of environment turfgrass managers in the USA may experience.
Tony, if you have 8-10k extra sqft of space on your property, I encourage you to contact NTEP and offer them to host a trial. They will pay you a modest fee to host if you are selected and you'd provide a huge benefit to the industry.


Best advice for grass selection? Get a few pallets or regrass a tee, regrass a putting green & test the turf on the site-specific course for 2-3 years. I would not rely solely on NTEP & data trials. Too much money, pressure & expectations to put full faith in a trial/testing study.

I do not recommend this example to dictate cultivar selection because it would be compared to nothing. That's confirmation bias. Could it perform awesome? Sure, but relative to what? There may be a cultivar that outperforms the one being tested. In your example, it would be far more effective and beneficial to select a dozen or or so high performance cultivars and grow them on property before the final selection. That method might be valid, but growing one is anecdotal.


NTEP is the undisputed premier source of turfgrass cultivar data. To dismiss the data collected and value provided to the industry is disingenuous.

[Anthony_Nysse]

John,
  There are numerous clubs/Superintendents that review several grasses prior to making a final decision. Side by side comparison, on a range tee, in the rough to review cart traffic, shade tolerance. NOTHING beats real life testing & NTEP & University data never seems to achieve that. Ever. Golfer's expectations & Mother Nature play too big of a role that studies never seem to be able to emulate.


Why Choose Us - Mini Verde - Providing Bermudagrass Greens for Golf Courses


NTEP rated MV VERY high in its testing-why is it now hardly used & in fact, been taken out in nearly all courses that installed over the last 15 years, including multiple Tour & Top 100 courses? There have not been enough newer varieties to flood the market & push it out; it just didn't perform. It didn't pass the sniff test.


Home - Latitude36® Bermudagrass (latitude36bermuda.com)


Rated VERY high on NTEP when it was released 7-8 years ago. Hardly used today & in fact, already been taken out at several courses & replaced. It was supposed to be the new kid on the block & has already been passed up for Northbridge, TifTuff, Bimini & others.


NTEP is nice. It's like soil moisture meters & the new USGA ball. It's just data. Nothing beats real life testing on the golf course.

[John Emerson]

John,
  There are numerous clubs/Superintendents that review several grasses prior to making a final decision. Side by side comparison, on a range tee, in the rough to review cart traffic, shade tolerance. NOTHING beats real life testing & NTEP & University data never seems to achieve that. Ever. Golfer's expectations & Mother Nature play too big of a role that studies never seem to be able to emulate.


Why Choose Us - Mini Verde - Providing Bermudagrass Greens for Golf Courses


NTEP rated MV VERY high in its testing-why is it now hardly used & in fact, been taken out in nearly all courses that installed over the last 15 years, including multiple Tour & Top 100 courses? There have not been enough newer varieties to flood the market & push it out; it just didn't perform. It didn't pass the sniff test.


Home - Latitude36® Bermudagrass (latitude36bermuda.com)


Rated VERY high on NTEP when it was released 7-8 years ago. Hardly used today & in fact, already been taken out at several courses & replaced. It was supposed to be the new kid on the block & has already been passed up for Northbridge, TifTuff, Bimini & others.


After looking through the previous ntep data, MV performance was poor to mediocre in almost all of the national ntep trials except one that was an onsite trial (1998) that contained only 6 other cultivars in one location.  MV ranked so poorly in it's first national trial that it finished in the bottom 25% and never made it to future national trials. Whoever decided that MV should be selected as the grass of choice must've fell prey to anecdotes, biased marketing and/or advertising. The data clearly suggest that it would be a poor choice. But of note, all.of the cultivars everyone switched to or is most common in use have strong ntep scores over a decade or more in multiple trials. The data doesn't lie, and it takes clear thought and the ability to interpret the body of data properly to make a sound decision. I stand by stance as does the data. IMO, cultivar selection should be the most carefully thought out decisions of a turfgrass manager, especially for fine turf surfaces.


NTEP is nice. It's like soil moisture meters & the new USGA ball. It's just data. Nothing beats real life testing on the golf course.

[Kyle Harris]

I once asked a extremely highly regarded turf breeder (at least if you asked him) how he rated plots for an NTEP trial and what made something an "8" v. "7".

I won't say he ever had the mind of a Warren Burger but his response was similar to Justice Burger's statement on pornography.

When you look at the NTEP trials it's important to understand the agronomic conditions under which the plots are kept.

Penncross typically rates fairly low. The NTEP trials also overfeed it.

Every grass has it's downside which the new varieties are all trying to improve upon. The latest bermudas are more drought resistant and the latest Zoysias are more disease resistant, etc.

Perhaps the trouble lay in assuming that the degree of "more" is significant to the golf course.

419 and TifEagle remain fairly undefeated.

[Kyle Harris]

John,
  There are numerous clubs/Superintendents that review several grasses prior to making a final decision. Side by side comparison, on a range tee, in the rough to review cart traffic, shade tolerance. NOTHING beats real life testing & NTEP & University data never seems to achieve that. Ever. Golfer's expectations & Mother Nature play too big of a role that studies never seem to be able to emulate.


Why Choose Us - Mini Verde - Providing Bermudagrass Greens for Golf Courses


NTEP rated MV VERY high in its testing-why is it now hardly used & in fact, been taken out in nearly all courses that installed over the last 15 years, including multiple Tour & Top 100 courses? There have not been enough newer varieties to flood the market & push it out; it just didn't perform. It didn't pass the sniff test.


Home - Latitude36® Bermudagrass (latitude36bermuda.com)


Rated VERY high on NTEP when it was released 7-8 years ago. Hardly used today & in fact, already been taken out at several courses & replaced. It was supposed to be the new kid on the block & has already been passed up for Northbridge, TifTuff, Bimini & others.


After looking through the previous ntep data, MV performance was poor to mediocre in almost all of the national ntep trials except one that was an onsite trial (1998) that contained only 6 other cultivars in one location.  MV ranked so poorly in it's first national trial that it finished in the bottom 25% and never made it to future national trials. Whoever decided that MV should be selected as the grass of choice must've fell prey to anecdotes, biased marketing and/or advertising. The data clearly suggest that it would be a poor choice. But of note, all.of the cultivars everyone switched to or is most common in use have strong ntep scores over a decade or more in multiple trials. The data doesn't lie, and it takes clear thought and the ability to interpret the body of data properly to make a sound decision. I stand by stance as does the data. IMO, cultivar selection should be the most carefully thought out decisions of a turfgrass manager, especially for fine turf surfaces.


NTEP is nice. It's like soil moisture meters & the new USGA ball. It's just data. Nothing beats real life testing on the golf course.

FWIW Miniverde is still very much around under a new name and coming from different farms.