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T_MacWood

The lost plans of Cypress Point
« on: December 10, 2003, 07:33:27 AM »
Don't you find it bit strange that not only are the Raynor plans evidently not in existance, but there are no MacKenzie plans. What happened?

Brian_Gracely

Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2003, 07:53:39 AM »
CP was built by the hand of God, so you may not find any plans  ;)  Or maybe you ought to seek out Marion Hollins' plans...
« Last Edit: December 10, 2003, 07:54:52 AM by Brian_Gracely »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2003, 08:30:42 AM »
Tom,

I found this very strange when writing the Cypress chapter of my book. You are aware of the stick-figure routing plan prepared by MacKenzie in 1926? Goeff S. used it in the end paper of his book...I got a crude copy and reprinted it in its entirety. Wouldn't it be great to unearth an old wrinkled plan in someone's garage?
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

ForkaB

Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2003, 09:23:17 AM »
My guess is that MacKenzie stole Raynor's plans, added lots of lacy frills to Seth's utilitarian bunkers and then burned all the drawings.  Marion Hollins caught him in the act and made him let her re-design the 16th to pay for her silence.

Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2003, 11:11:35 AM »
Tom,
I don't find it strange at all. The plans, models and assorted documentation for most of the great courses is gone. I'd love to see Chandler Egan's green models for Pebble Beach or George Thomas's stuff or MacKenzie's Sharp Park plans, but most of it was tossed because few people saw any reason to keep such things. MacKenzie's Augusta green drawings were in the possession of the USGA for years without Augusta having a set of copies (I found them in an Augusta photo file when I was there!).

Why do you find it strange that both the Raynor and MacKenzie plans are missing?
Geoff

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2003, 11:23:39 AM »
It seems we appreciate the Art in architecture more than most. These drawing generally do not have the value placed on them at most clubs which we place on them. I do love to see the vision of the original work as well as the craftmenship whcih was part of the work from this period.

T_MacWood

Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2003, 01:19:58 PM »
Geoff
I find it more strange that MacKenzie's plan is missing.

I realize that all sorts of plans have been lost through the years--clubhouse fires, floods, the entire course and clubhouse gets washed out to sea or they are just thrown away. Some of these plans aren't all that attractive (for example Egan's) or they were designed for the field. I'm not sure I've ever seen a Thomas plan (other than what's in his book). But whatever the reasons too many are gone.

As far CPC is concerned, I don't believe it was effected by a fire or flood or storm. The club and the Del Monte company appears to have enjoyed many years of stability (relative to other clubs) -- another reason why plans get misplaced or lost.

On the other hand there are quite a few MacKenzie plans that have survived, Ohio State has one, Michigan has one (its actually Maxwell's plan), Valley Club, Augusta National (found their plan not too long ago), Uruguay, Adelaide, Sacramento, St.Charles, Alwoodley, and I'm sure there others I'm not aware of.

One of the reasons I believe his plans survive, is because they are attractive, they are designed for presentation, art if you will. I suspect that many his plans find themselves in a frame early on and once in the frame there chances for survival is good (they aren't rolled up sitting in a corner). There were scores of clubs around the world that had MacKenzie's plan for Old Course hanging on their walls...surely an original would be even more prized. (IMO the green drawing survival is less likely, smaller, easier to loose or throw out, often not framed).

Cypress Point the day it opened was considered a spectacular world class golf course, designed by a world famous architect. And that reputation never waned, the club has always been well aware of their status worldwide...and I'm sure quite proud of it. You would think the club would have preserved much of their records, and it appears they did....numerous letters, the prospectus, the early stick routing, the Albert Barrows rendering. I find it odd the plans are unaccounted for.

I also, for whatever reason, have inclination that Raynor's plan is around somewhere, perhaps in an unlikely spot -- although its survival is more a long shot. If his plans didn't survive, I would think a written description is out there somewhere.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2003, 01:29:50 PM by Tom MacWood »

Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2003, 01:42:52 PM »
Well, there was the first plan which was an artsy version of his first routing (or for those hoping to believe another version as if it'll change the world, Seth Raynor's).

Then there are the blueprints which show a slightly different routing and homesites.

Then the golf course was built a bit differently. No final "as built" was created as far as I know. Why? I have no idea but I doubt there is a strange reason behind it. This happens all the time in golf architecture. Very few of MacKenzie's courses I can think of feature a final "as built" drawn and signed by him, but instead, by surveyists or landscape architects.


Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2003, 02:34:13 PM »
Geoff,

Wasn't MacKenzie slowing down immediately after CPC? Would it be likley that he simply never got around to rendering a final plan?
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2003, 02:46:58 PM »
Forrest,

Entirely possible he just never did a final plan. I wish he did of course. I also wish a Raynor plan would surface so we could study his reverse Redan 7th that is not in the plan often attributed to actually being his), Raynor's biarritz par-3 on 16 that was actually a par-4 in that same plan and all so we could blame him for a lackluster 18th! :)

Geoff
« Last Edit: December 10, 2003, 02:49:28 PM by Geoff_Shackelford »

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2003, 02:51:09 PM »
I think it is very likely they were thrown out because they weren't considered to be of importance. Kind of like something I heard about D Ross in his backyard burning his papers until someone stopped him. Anyone else hear this story and know more of the details?
R3
« Last Edit: December 10, 2003, 02:52:32 PM by hickorygolf »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2003, 03:33:41 PM »
Something of interest I found here at the library today:


THuckaby2

Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2003, 03:35:06 PM »
Oh man, that is absolutely EPIC.  Well done, sir.  ;D

tonyt

Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2003, 03:36:17 PM »
Pure gold Tommy, pure gold  :D

Brian_Gracely

Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2003, 03:42:32 PM »
Interesting that Dr. MacKenzie adopted the US formatting for dates (July 10 vs. 10 July), especially considering that he hadn't been in the States for short period of time.  I guess this just reinforces the belief that he was skilled in adapting to the blank canvas before him  ;D
« Last Edit: December 10, 2003, 03:43:09 PM by Brian_Gracely »

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2003, 03:42:42 PM »
When Golf Digest ranks the best posts of 2003, Tommy's is definiteliy top 5 material!

Robert Emmons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2003, 03:44:20 PM »
Thats classic..Well done...

tonyt

Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2003, 03:44:35 PM »
Don't show this thread to Ian Andrew, he'll need oxygen to help him back up off the floor. The comedy has been good lately.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2003, 04:09:52 PM »
Pablo Naccarato,

   Your GCA artwork is simply outstanding. Someday an entire website will likely be devoted to it.

 :D
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2003, 04:21:07 PM »
They cast the wrong guy in that movie by using Di Caprio in "Catch Me if You Can".  Or was the movie based on the forensic golf course archie and forger, Sir Tomas di Nacrato? ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

ian

Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2003, 07:01:01 PM »
ha, ha ha ha ha ha......thump.....ouch!

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2003, 08:29:03 PM »
"Tony" how bout doing the lost Raynor plans overlayed on CPC today.

T_MacWood

Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2003, 09:22:25 PM »
The first artsy version was done by Albert Barrows, a relatively famous artist from N. California. It was based on "sketches and plans prepared by Dr.MacKenzie," sorry its not Raynor's plan.

I believe it would be more surprising if MacKenzie didn't create a master plan (beyond the stick drawing), that was his custom and the custom of most architects of that era, including Ross, Tillinghast, Travis, Flynn, Alison and Raynor. I'm not sure about "as built"final plan, but very close to as built. ANGC's plan is not as built, some holes were changed.

He wasn't slowing down at that time, he was picking up steam. And he carried the momentum past the crash of 1929. Creating new courses on both coasts and in the midwest, also going down to S.America and of course ANGC.

Tommy
There is a guy in Australia that has been searching for that smoking gun for a long time....he needs you to contact him immediately. Did you find any letters to any aborigines sounding destinations?

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2003, 08:53:26 AM »
Tom,

Does the Barrows version exist in the public domain? I don't recall seeing it in any publications (Geoff's book on Cypress or Doak's book on Mac).

Tommy

That was as classic a post as this web site will ever have!!
Integrity in the moment of choice

T_MacWood

Re:The lost plans of Cypress Point
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2003, 11:04:24 AM »
John
Its in Geoff's Cypress Point book and 'The Golden Age' (I believe).