Where is golf not affordable?

[Ian Andrew]

Toronto has also lost private courses in the last decade or so.  And that may continue given real estate demand.  It is hard to see public courses surviving that are not munis or very high end, unless they are on land that isn't able to be developed.

I always considered Clublink as “real estate company”. They have lots more to close and develop.

[Dan_Callahan]

In determining affordability, if you are only looking at price, I would imagine you can find an affordable course anywhere. But I know in the Boston area the last few years (can’t speak about now because I don’t live there anymore), while you could find courses with reasonable greens fees, it was exceedingly difficult to get a tee time that wasn’t during the workday. And if you did manage to get a weekend tee time, you were looking at a 5+ hour round. Which sucks all the fun out of playing.

[Tim_Weiman]

In determining affordability, if you are only looking at price, I would imagine you can find an affordable course anywhere. But I know in the Boston area the last few years (can’t speak about now because I don’t live there anymore), while you could find courses with reasonable greens fees, it was exceedingly difficult to get a tee time that wasn’t during the workday. And if you did manage to get a weekend tee time, you were looking at a 5+ hour round. Which sucks all the fun out of playing.

Dan,


I’m sure there are some metropolitan areas that could use another public course or two, but of course finding land and developing a course that is “affordable” isn’t so easy or it would have already been done.


Tim

[Michael Morandi]

While I will definitely appreciate this thread, however, I do want to immediately explode/expound this question.

What do we mean by affordable? Affordable to whom and by what value proposition.

I play at a cheap(ish) muni in SF, but many folks think that the course sucks and isn't worth the money because much of the focus on golf is aesthetics over architecture. It would still not reasonable for some living near the poverty line to play regularly, though, as even a weekly game would be a non-negligible cost.

On top of that you have to think about the places where demand for the inexpensive munis is so high, that suggesting that they are accessible is debatable. Los Angeles is certainly grappling with that right now.

I know that many folks find private clubs a good value proposition because they play/train daily, and there may be a break even point, especially when it comes to lessons.

Then you have to talk about the value prop for a destination course/resort like Bandon. On a one-off basis, they can be perfectly affordable as a value proposition for many, but they are obviously not affordable as a regular place to play.
It's a heady question, and not one I have any immediate answers to, and I could see how effects similar to the housing market can drive privates due to shortages of supply, but similar to housing markets, this only makes the golf unaffordable for folks that do not already have access to a club.

I do think that San Francisco, where I live, has a lot of Munis, but golf even at these locations is still very expensive compared to other regions.

What a ridiculous answer.  If you can afford to LIVE in San Francisco, you can certainly afford to play golf at slightly higher rates.  Everything is more expensive there because of the underlying real estate.  And for those who have to live 90 minutes' drive away from SF, because you can't afford that, I'm betting there are cheaper golf options near where they live.

With all due respect, Tom, not everybody in my hometown of San Francisco is well off. Many can afford to live here only because they bought housing decades ago when prices were reasonable; property taxes are relatively fixed to original purchase price. Much of the rental stock is sub par and relatively inexpensive. Yes, the median cost is high but in my opinion somewhat distorting. I’m a member of a private club but as a senior resident I have to pay for a golf permit to get on Harding Park for $65 during the week. That is a luxury for some in my hometown.

[Tim_Weiman]

Michael,


When you say $65 to play Harding Park is a luxury, do you mean $65 once per week, once a month, every three months?

[Michael Morandi]

Daily fee. More expensive on weekends.

[Tim_Weiman]

Daily fee. More expensive on weekends.

Does that mean not affordable? If so, in what markets?

[Thomas Dai]

Expectations have a lot to do with it.Golf’s essentially a pretty simple stick, ball, hole game.
It’s all the malarkey around the game that makes it complicated and expensive.
Atb

Thomas,
So where is it not affordable?
FYI, I understand the public courses in Westchester County cost about $35 on weekdays and $26 for seniors.
Tim

Fair point.
It’s not just the affordability of playing. There’s affordability involved with local availability and ease of access too. Not in relation to subs and joining fees etc though.
Once upon time metropolitan public parks even public parks in rural towns had a golf facility of some kind, maybe 9-holes, maybe pitch-n-putt, maybe just putting greens, but located relatively closely to centres of population so folks could get to them cheaply, they could walk to them, ride a bike to them, catch a short bus ride to them etc. hence where once youngsters could get to such facilities on their own now it’s a lift from Mum or Dad or sometime else. And this all adds to the complication and the cost.
Seems like a significant number of such facilities no longer exist, they certainly don’t exist much in the U.K. anymore, so affordability isn’t what it once was even if that affordability isn’t directly related to price to actually play more the cost and time of travelling to somewhere to play.
Atb

[Stephen Britton]

DC area.


Munis/public courses (all bad designs) $75 per round


Private clubs are mostly full with wait lists and the cheapest initiation is $12,000 with $500 monthly dues.

[Tim_Weiman]

DC area.


Munis/public courses (all bad designs) $75 per round


Private clubs are mostly full with wait lists and the cheapest initiation is $12,000 with $500 monthly dues.

Stephen,


I agree with you about DC. Not a good place for golf. Pretty sure there are better options up in Baltimore.

[Joe_Tucholski]

DC area.


Munis/public courses (all bad designs) $75 per round


Private clubs are mostly full with wait lists and the cheapest initiation is $12,000 with $500 monthly dues.

Stephen,


I agree with you about DC. Not a good place for golf. Pretty sure there are better options up in Baltimore.

I'll likely play up in Annapolis after moving this summer.  Under $200 a month and under an hour drive.  I made a similar drive going up to Rustic when I lived in LA.


When reading the topic question the answer to me is golf is not affordable when there are no courses around.  I know that's probably not what is being asked but if you are one of the 600ish people living in Wainwright AK taking a couple flights and driving to a course probably is cost prohibitive.  Similarly, there are a number of places in Asia with no courses around or islands like Kiribati in the pacific where the travel makes golf not affordable.

[Greg Hohman]

San Diego is known for great weather, meh golf. Affordable meh golf? Unable to play much in the last two years, I am on shaky ground with a claim of still affordable because how many are in my category of $20-50 per round twice monthly, walking and few weekends? A local who plays more often would have a more informed opinion. A sign of change for not-so-affordable: I am told that it’s harder to get on everywhere in the area. Example: A call the day before (or even two?) to Balboa Muni could not get two of us on on a weekday. That wasn’t the case in the recent past, iirc.

[Bruce Katona]

Given the land mass, I'd argue Hawaii public golf is on the higher side.  Ala Wai (non-resident) is $86 tomorrow morning, as it appears most of the City/County of Honolulu courses.  I couldn't get the resident greens fee as it requires a reservation

[Joe_Tucholski]

Given the land mass, I'd argue Hawaii public golf is on the higher side.  Ala Wai (non-resident) is $86 tomorrow morning, as it appears most of the City/County of Honolulu courses.  I couldn't get the resident greens fee as it requires a reservation

Bruce locals pay $28 or $32.  Not sure affordable golf is a concern for most people vacationing in Hawaii.  Even the higher end public places have fairly affordable Kama'aina (local) rates.  I played all over the islands when I lived there and considered it affordable especially when compared to many of the other inflated costs.

[Tim Taylor]

I live in Vienna, VA - ground zero in one of the nation's richest counties. While we're not a public golf Mecca in terms of "great" courses, we have decent municipal options. No Ross or Raynor here, but everything from par threes to legit 7000+ championship level courses. They range from dog tracks to pretty damn nice courses (Forest Greens and Laurel Hill). All rates below are regular, in-season, walking, except where indicated. Some have junior and senior discounts.


Fairfax County Park Authority has seven courses:

• Burke Lake (range + 18 hole par three, 2415 yards): $24-34
• Greendale: $40-49
• Jefferson District (9 hole executive): $27-32
• Laurel Hill (2013 Publinks was held here): $89-119 w/cart
• Oakmont (range + 9 hole par three): $24-27
• Pinecrest (9 hole executive, 2462 yards): $27-32
• Twin Lakes (two 18 hole courses): $51-85

Town of Herndon:

• Herndon Centennial: $38-54

Northern Virginia Park Authority has three courses:

• Algonkian: $56-74.50
• Brambleton: $57-75
• Pohick Bay: $56-74.50

Prince William County has three courses:

• Forest Greens: $40-79 w/cart
• Lake Ridge (9 hole par three): $20
• Prince William: $40-54

Tim

[Wayne_Kozun]

Toronto has also lost private courses in the last decade or so.  And that may continue given real estate demand.  It is hard to see public courses surviving that are not munis or very high end, unless they are on land that isn't able to be developed.

I always considered Clublink as “real estate company”. They have lots more to close and develop.

Agreed but it isn't just Clublink.  There was York Downs a few years ago and I think that there have been others, have there not?  Board of Trade aka The Country Club was another, which was managed by Clublink in recent years but it doesn't appear that they owned it.

[Ian Andrew]

Agreed but it isn't just Clublink.  There was York Downs a few years ago and I think that there have been others, have there not?  Board of Trade aka The Country Club was another, which was managed by Clublink in recent years but it doesn't appear that they owned it.

It won't be the last one to go. I've always assumed North at Angus Glen will go. So will Beacon Hall eventually. Mandarin had an offer years ago. There's a long history of Toronto area courses disappearing. On my drive back from Cedar Brae I passed three courses that no longer exist. I had played all of them including Box Grove (what a great course). When I began digging a few years back, I found six courses along Kingston Road in Scarborough. I kind of knew about three of them, but certainly not all.


They will continue to go. Even Glen Abbey will eventually too.

[Tim_Weiman]

I live in Vienna, VA - ground zero in one of the nation's richest counties. While we're not a public golf Mecca in terms of "great" courses, we have decent municipal options. No Ross or Raynor here, but everything from par threes to legit 7000+ championship level courses. They range from dog tracks to pretty damn nice courses (Forest Greens and Laurel Hill). All rates below are regular, in-season, walking, except where indicated. Some have junior and senior discounts.


Fairfax County Park Authority has seven courses:

• Burke Lake (range + 18 hole par three, 2415 yards): $24-34
• Greendale: $40-49
• Jefferson District (9 hole executive): $27-32
• Laurel Hill (2013 Publinks was held here): $89-119 w/cart
• Oakmont (range + 9 hole par three): $24-27
• Pinecrest (9 hole executive, 2462 yards): $27-32
• Twin Lakes (two 18 hole courses): $51-85

Town of Herndon:

• Herndon Centennial: $38-54

Northern Virginia Park Authority has three courses:

• Algonkian: $56-74.50
• Brambleton: $57-75
• Pohick Bay: $56-74.50

Prince William County has three courses:

• Forest Greens: $40-79 w/cart
• Lake Ridge (9 hole par three): $20
• Prince William: $40-54

Tim

Tim,


Thanks for your post. I was hoping someone would check in with data on Northern Virginia. I’d call that area affordable.


Tim Weiman

[Ian Mackenzie]

 Public access golf is NOT "affordable" in southwest Florida.
Specifically in Collier County where there are 225 courses and only 20 maybe are public access and for a paltry sum of $155 you can play a soggy goat pasture like Arrowhead Golf Club where, in most cities in the US, it would be $50 tops!

[SB]

I've heard the Palm Beach area is pretty bad, with munis over $100 and as much as $170.  Many private clubs are north of $100K to get in and have dues pushing $2K a month. 

[Ryan McLaughlin]

Southern CA for sure.   Not only has access been impacted post covid...but may course are using surge pricing and base pricing has gone up considerably. 

[Rob Marshall]

I've heard the Palm Beach area is pretty bad, with munis over $100 and as much as $170.  Many private clubs are north of $100K to get in and have dues pushing $2K a month.

Those sound like deals compared to Naples

[Cal Carlisle]

I read about the "brokers" in LA that snap up tee times. Talk about adding insult to injury.

Humans find a way to ruin everything

[Tim_Weiman]

Southern CA for sure.   Not only has access been impacted post covid...but may course are using surge pricing and base pricing has gone up considerably.

Ryan,


What exactly do you mean by “access has been impacted post Covid”?


Does this simply mean higher demand?


Thanks,


Tim

[Stephen Britton]

I live in Vienna, VA - ground zero in one of the nation's richest counties. While we're not a public golf Mecca in terms of "great" courses, we have decent municipal options. No Ross or Raynor here, but everything from par threes to legit 7000+ championship level courses. They range from dog tracks to pretty damn nice courses (Forest Greens and Laurel Hill). All rates below are regular, in-season, walking, except where indicated. Some have junior and senior discounts.


Fairfax County Park Authority has seven courses:

• Burke Lake (range + 18 hole par three, 2415 yards): $24-34
• Greendale: $40-49
• Jefferson District (9 hole executive): $27-32
• Laurel Hill (2013 Publinks was held here): $89-119 w/cart
• Oakmont (range + 9 hole par three): $24-27
• Pinecrest (9 hole executive, 2462 yards): $27-32
• Twin Lakes (two 18 hole courses): $51-85

Town of Herndon:

• Herndon Centennial: $38-54

Northern Virginia Park Authority has three courses:

• Algonkian: $56-74.50
• Brambleton: $57-75
• Pohick Bay: $56-74.50

Prince William County has three courses:

• Forest Greens: $40-79 w/cart
• Lake Ridge (9 hole par three): $20
• Prince William: $40-54

Tim

Tim,


Thanks for your post. I was hoping someone would check in with data on Northern Virginia. I’d call that area affordable.


Tim Weiman

I guess we have different ides of affordable golf, those prices average $55 per round, at 2 rounds per week, thats $440 USD per month, plus there is nothing compelling about any of those golf courses.


For that monthly price, you could join a Melbourne sanbelt club and most links clubs all over the UK...