Where is golf not affordable?

[Tim_Weiman]

Given the recent thread about golf club for billionaires, it seems only logical to examine the other perspective:


Where is golf not affordable?


I don’t mean the cost of joining a private club. Rather, I mean the cost the playing golf.

Cleveland’s Metroparks is clearly an example of where playing golf IS affordable. I paid $8.80 yesterday to play nine holes at Big Met in Fairview Park.


Rec Park in Long Beach, CA, Wilmington Municipal in Wilmington, NC and the old Bruce Park in Greenwich, CT are other examples of affordable golf.


But let’s identify: where is playing decent golf not affordable?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

In Wilmington, DE

https://deerfieldgolfclub.com/golf/
Monday through Friday – Play for Just $30 any time
 Weekends and Holidays – $40 after 12PM

[Tim_Weiman]

In Wilmington, DE
https://deerfieldgolfclub.com/golf/
Monday through Friday – Play for Just $30 any time
 Weekends and Holidays – $40 after 12PM

Steve,


I’m really trying to identify where paying golf ISN’T affordable, but couldn’t help check out the greens fees for the public course in Greenwich, CT. It is:


Weekdays: $35
Weekends: $41


The course now called Griffith Harris isn’t bad. I wouldn’t feel any worse playing there than, say, Stanwich Club or Greenwich Country Club.


So, again I ask, where isn’t there affordable public access golf?

[Matt Schoolfield]

While I will definitely appreciate this thread, however, I do want to immediately explode/expound this question.

What do we mean by affordable? Affordable to whom and by what value proposition.

I play at a cheap(ish) muni in SF, but many folks think that the course sucks and isn't worth the money because much of the focus on golf is aesthetics over architecture. It would still not reasonable for some living near the poverty line to play regularly, though, as even a weekly game would be a non-negligible cost.

On top of that you have to think about the places where demand for the inexpensive munis is so high, that suggesting that they are accessible is debatable. Los Angeles is certainly grappling with that right now.

I know that many folks find private clubs a good value proposition because they play/train daily, and there may be a break even point, especially when it comes to lessons.

Then you have to talk about the value prop for a destination course/resort like Bandon. On a one-off basis, they can be perfectly affordable as a value proposition for many, but they are obviously not affordable as a regular place to play.
It's a heady question, and not one I have any immediate answers to, and I could see how effects similar to the housing market can drive privates due to shortages of supply, but similar to housing markets, this only makes the golf unaffordable for folks that do not already have access to a club.

I do think that San Francisco, where I live, has a lot of Munis, but golf even at these locations is still very expensive compared to other regions.

[Thomas Dai]

Expectations have a lot to do with it.Golf’s essentially a pretty simple stick, ball, hole game.
It’s all the malarkey around the game that makes it complicated and expensive.


Atb

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt,


I offered two examples:


9 holes at a public course in Cleveland $8.80
18 holes at a public course in Greenwich, CT $35


Do you consider these affordable?


Tim

[Tim_Weiman]

Expectations have a lot to do with it.Golf’s essentially a pretty simple stick, ball, hole game.
It’s all the malarkey around the game that makes it complicated and expensive.


Atb

Thomas,


So where is it not affordable?


FYI, I understand the public courses in Westchester County cost about $35 on weekdays and $26 for seniors.


Tim

[Matt Schoolfield]

Matt,


I offered two examples:


9 holes at a public course in Cleveland $8.80
18 holes at a public course in Greenwich, CT $35


Do you consider these affordable?


Tim

It would be hard for me to argue that those are not affordable. My point is that "affordable" golf should probably be expressed as a function, likely consisting of price, median income (and standard deviation), conditions/architecture, and availability. Affordability is so deeply context-dependent that just listing a course and a price, while obvious in certain cases, does not get at the scope of the idea we are trying to illustrate.

[jeffwarne]

Here in The Hamptons we have Sag Harbor Golf Club, no tee times required for $22 weekdays, $33 weekends for 18 holes(9holer)
Goat hill is probably $25 to walk.


I'd say the answer might be LA, where getting tee time at a muni is probably hard, and the pace is probably unpleasant.
That said, I played Soule park in Ojai for $12 after 3 pm on a Sunday a few years ago. Seems that would be worth the drive.

[Charlie Goerges]

I offered two examples:


9 holes at a public course in Cleveland $8.80
18 holes at a public course in Greenwich, CT $35


Do you consider these affordable?


Tim

The prices are fair. Affordable depends on the individual person. There are certainly people for whom a fair price is unaffordable, and it's not just people near/below the poverty line.


Providing 18 holes of golf for $30-$50 is about all we can expect of the game (maybe a little lower on the margins). That's fair I think. But we just have to acknowledge that there are decent people who wish to play but can't pay that fair price.

[Tim_Weiman]

Here in The Hamptons we have Sag Harbor Golf Club, no tee times required for $22 weekdays, $33 weekends for 18 holes(9holer)
Goat hill is probably $25 to walk.


I'd say the answer might be LA, where getting tee time at a muni is probably hard, and the pace is probably unpleasant.
That said, I played Soule park in Ojai for $12 after 3 pm on a Sunday a few years ago. Seems that would be worth the drive.

Jeff,


I love Rec Park in Long Beach. Legend is Ben Hogan did too. For Long Beach residents the 18 hole green fee is $38 Monday - Thursday. For seniors the fee is $23 or $16 for play after 12:00.


Sure access on weekends is tough, but there is no problem walking on early in the week.


Tim

[Kalen Braley]

Are we also going to include equipment costs in this too?  Upfront costs for clubs and other gear is not cheap, much less ongoing expenses to play like balls, appropriate attire, shoes, transportation, etc.

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt,


I offered two examples:


9 holes at a public course in Cleveland $8.80
18 holes at a public course in Greenwich, CT $35


Do you consider these affordable?


Tim

It would be hard for me to argue that those are not affordable. My point is that "affordable" golf should probably be expressed as a function, likely consisting of price, median income (and standard deviation), conditions/architecture, and availability. Affordability is so deeply context-dependent that just listing a course and a price, while obvious in certain cases, does not get at the scope of the idea we are trying to illustrate.

Matt,


I looked at Wilmington Municipal, a Ross course I think many would rather play than, say, Bethpage Black. Architecture is really good. Quite walkable.


Green fees for local residents are $31 weekdays and $34 on weekends. Per a Goggle search, it appears the average household income in Wilmington is $83,000 with the median about $54,000.


The course gets a lot of play.


Playing once a week costs about 2% of annual average income and 3% of median household income.


Does this meet your standard for affordable?


Tim

[Tim_Weiman]

Are we also going to include equipment costs in this too?  Upfront costs for clubs and other gear is not cheap, much less ongoing expenses to play like balls, appropriate attire, shoes, transportation, etc.

Kalen,


I was fortunate to grow up playing golf at a private country club where my parents belonged (Pelham Country club, Pelham, NY).


I had a 3,5,7 and 9 iron with a putter and a driver. Never had more the three golf balls.


By that standard, the equipment costs aren’t so bad.


But then, I didn’t have an iPhone!


My point is that the cost of equipment can vary significantly, with used being far less than the latest brand new clubs.


Tim

[Tom_Doak]

While I will definitely appreciate this thread, however, I do want to immediately explode/expound this question.

What do we mean by affordable? Affordable to whom and by what value proposition.

I play at a cheap(ish) muni in SF, but many folks think that the course sucks and isn't worth the money because much of the focus on golf is aesthetics over architecture. It would still not reasonable for some living near the poverty line to play regularly, though, as even a weekly game would be a non-negligible cost.

On top of that you have to think about the places where demand for the inexpensive munis is so high, that suggesting that they are accessible is debatable. Los Angeles is certainly grappling with that right now.

I know that many folks find private clubs a good value proposition because they play/train daily, and there may be a break even point, especially when it comes to lessons.

Then you have to talk about the value prop for a destination course/resort like Bandon. On a one-off basis, they can be perfectly affordable as a value proposition for many, but they are obviously not affordable as a regular place to play.
It's a heady question, and not one I have any immediate answers to, and I could see how effects similar to the housing market can drive privates due to shortages of supply, but similar to housing markets, this only makes the golf unaffordable for folks that do not already have access to a club.

I do think that San Francisco, where I live, has a lot of Munis, but golf even at these locations is still very expensive compared to other regions.

What a ridiculous answer.  If you can afford to LIVE in San Francisco, you can certainly afford to play golf at slightly higher rates.  Everything is more expensive there because of the underlying real estate.  And for those who have to live 90 minutes' drive away from SF, because you can't afford that, I'm betting there are cheaper golf options near where they live.

[Tom_Doak]

Are we also going to include equipment costs in this too?  Upfront costs for clubs and other gear is not cheap, much less ongoing expenses to play like balls, appropriate attire, shoes, transportation, etc.

Also a ridiculous answer.  Do you need to play Pro V1's and have fancy golf shoes to enjoy golf?  No, you don't.


I used to get the occasional side-eye when I would roll up to a top 50 golf course and play in my Keen hiking shoes.  Now the guys who were hosting me wear them, too!

[Matt Schoolfield]

Matt,

I looked at Wilmington Municipal, a Ross course I think many would rather play than, say, Bethpage Black. Architecture is really good. Quite walkable.

Green fees for local residents are $31 weekdays and $34 on weekends. Per a Goggle search, it appears the average household income in Wilmington is $83,000 with the median about $54,000.

The course gets a lot of play.

Playing once a week costs about 2% of annual average income and 3% of median household income.

Does this meet your standard for affordable?

Tim

I mean, I didn't articulate a standard, but yes, that seems entirely affordable to me for most people.

What a ridiculous answer.  If you can afford to LIVE in San Francisco, you can certainly afford to play golf at slightly higher rates.  Everything is more expensive there because of the underlying real estate.  And for those who have to live 90 minutes' drive away from SF, because you can't afford that, I'm betting there are cheaper golf options near where they live.

With respect, the general paradigm of affordability of a city being related to the costs of living there does not work with San Francisco especially, but with California in general. The (pretty insane) laws here allow some folks to live here at a massively steep discount to others, via rent controls and/or (heritable) property tax exemptions. Combine that with the nuanced city golf card, and you have multiple tiers of cost of living and cost of golf depending on the person's situation.

I'm proposing almost exactly the type of thing that you are pointing out, that affordability should viewed as a function of the cost of living of an area, but with nod to the value proposition, and not as a flat rate.

[Pierre_C]

My wife and I were fortunate to have lived in Asia for several years. One of the things we enjoyed doing was playing golf around the region.  The most unaffordable places to play golf in Asia are Hong Kong and China.


Hong Kong has 4 golf clubs, 3 private and 1 public. The public course is Jockey Club @ Kau Sai Chau, located on an island which requires a ferry ride - $11 round trip.  The average income in Hong Kong is $55,545/year; median is $29,267.04/year.
Hong Kong has a pop. of 7.3M; 408,500 millionaires; 290 centi-millionaires, and 32 billionaires.

Hong Kong - Kau Sai Chau
$123 (weekday) - resident ID
$145 (weekend) - resident ID

$158 (weekday) - non-resident
$200 (weekend) - non-resident


China - Hainan Island is a China's golf destination, over 22 golf courses and counting. Mission Hills has 10 courses on the island. Average income in China is $12,750/year (this includes rural and urban). China has 6.2M millionaires; 2,250 centi-millionaires; 285 billionaires.
Monthly income Hainan resident: $856; $3,411; $15,193 (low, avg, high)

The cheapest course to play:
West Coast Golf Club
$150.00 (weekday, vistor)
$180.00 (weekend, vistor)


Hong Kong





Hainan Provence

[Jeff Segol]

The Silicon Valley munis (Shoreline, Poplar Creek, Sunnyvale, Santa Teresa) are generally running about $60 for a weekend. Baylands, which used to be my home course, is $88 if you're from the Bay Area, but not Palo Alto. I only play there on tournaments, because the club there gets the resident rate for its events. But everything is relative. Harding is now $130 for a Bay Area non-SF resident to play at 2 in the afternoon. the resident rates there have gone up as well, to the point where I've played at Baylands with Friscans who say they can't afford to play at Harding. I would say that $60 is fair, relative to incomes in the Bay Area. Those who can't afford that will go to Blackberry Farm, Sunken Gardens and other lesser venues. I view $88 at Baylands as gouging, but they're filling the tee sheet. If Forrest had been able to do the renovation on the schedule he proposed, which was held up by the City Council, they probably wouldn't need to charge so much now. Frankly, the pandemic golf boom saved them.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Isn't pretty much every city going to have munis that are pretty affordable?  The issue is what is the quality of the course, and how hard is it to get a tee time.
Maybe a better metric would be the price on mid-range public courses near the city at least for public courses. 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if large cities with expensive real estate have the least affordable golf.  So that would be cities like New York, San Fran, Toronto, London, etc.  And it would also be hard for urban golfers to get to the course as people that live in such urban areas, especially younger people, would be less likely to own cars.

[Ian Andrew]

Toronto is tough. The cheaper public courses are hard to get on. Just lost 10
Public Courses to housing development in last ten years. The others have raised rates dramatically over the last few years. I find it harder to play public golf. Access is an issue. Price varies.

And yes I still play public golf. It’s where I began. It’s where I’ll finish. 

[Craig Sweet]

Bridger Creek Bozeman, MT  $58 every day   Cart $24 per seat


Eagle Rock Billings, MT  $50 walking  $75 with cart


Larchmont Missoula, MT  $38   Cart  $40


Bill Roberts  Helena, MT  $45 walking   $67 with cart


Eagle Falls  Great Falls, MT  $41   Cart $17


[size=78%]Village Greens  [/size]Kalispell, MT    $78  Cart $44


Public golf in Montana.....Not really inexpensive.

[Craig Sweet]

Kalen..I have a nice set of Srixon zx5 irons...used for two seasons...that I'll make you a good deal on!  I'll even deliver to your course .

[Wayne_Kozun]

Toronto is tough. The cheaper public courses are hard to get on. Just lost 10
Public Courses to housing development in last ten years. The others have raised rates dramatically over the last few years. I find it harder to play public golf. Access is an issue. Price varies.

And yes I still play public golf. It’s where I began. It’s where I’ll finish.

Toronto has also lost private courses in the last decade or so.  And that may continue given real estate demand.  It is hard to see public courses surviving that are not munis or very high end, unless they are on land that isn't able to be developed.

[Cal Seifert]

Here in The Hamptons we have Sag Harbor Golf Club, no tee times required for $22 weekdays, $33 weekends for 18 holes(9holer)
Goat hill is probably $25 to walk.


I'd say the answer might be LA, where getting tee time at a muni is probably hard, and the pace is probably unpleasant.
That said, I played Soule park in Ojai for $12 after 3 pm on a Sunday a few years ago. Seems that would be worth the drive.

Montauk downs is also a very fair price since it is run by the county. Indian island in that regard as well.