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Brian Noser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Career Change
« on: December 09, 2003, 06:24:04 PM »
Hello All, I am looking to make a career change I currently have A degree In Business Administration, but I am looking to get into the golf business. I would like to get in the course design end of the business. Can any of you give me a stepping stone on which way to go with this. I do not know where to begin.  Thank you for all of your help in advance.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2003, 06:33:12 PM »
bnose,

I take it you are also into S&M.

Brian Noser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2003, 06:34:44 PM »
sure, you are correct but you have not helped me.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2003, 07:28:00 PM »
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=7243

brownnose, did you think of doing a search using the search feature of this site on the topic?  You'd have to go all the way back to the 2nd page to find an excellent discussion on your topic.  We have had this discussion about 100 times now for people looking for entres to the field of GCA and construction.   Either click the url above, or hit page 2 and you will find a good number of intelligent comments on this subject.  

But, here goes my rant... >:(  

You say you have a degree in Business Administration.  I assume that means some basic skill at research.  The way business ethics are going, perhaps you are doing just what we ought to expect and think you can just suck off an easy referral and look for an easy stepping stone to solve your problem.  This is all a symptom of our idiot internet mentally lazy and pinhead culture where you slide into a site like this and expect to find stepping stones from cyberspace.  Go friggin turn over a few stones yourself first.  You say you don't know where to go.  You are actually telling us you can't find a golf course architects offices, or a landscape construction company, or a golf course construction site in the process of being built where you couldn't present yourself and ask some questions first, straight up???  

I think of guys like Brian Schneider and Brian Philips whom I am very much in awe of who are working their asses off to follow their dreams and know how to present themselves professionally...even over the internet to our group.  Then I look at this sort of slacker like approach to mosey in on a discussion group and think you can find a stepping stone or have someone else tell you what way to go.  

Come back after you have made some progress on your own and can demonstrate some wherewithall to at least get yourself out the friggin door. ::)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Gary_Smith

Re:Career Change
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2003, 07:42:01 PM »
Good, solid rant, RJ. I'm impressed. You would make a good sales manager.  ;) The wussies would quit on you, but so what?  :)

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2003, 07:53:22 PM »
Dick Daley,

Reading your post, our friend bnose would hardly guess you are really a nice guy!

But, seriously, I agree with the thrust of your comments. Golfclubatlas can be a valuable resource to meet people, but if bnose - or anyone else - wants a career in golf course design, they have a lot of work ahead of them first finding a job and then developing the necessary skills.

FYI, a couple years back an architect who frequents this site asked me to help a young student get some exposure to Irish golf. While I never actually met the student, he provided an awfully nice profile of himself (about 15 pages) that documented his sincere interest in golf architecture.

I subsequently got some favorable feedback about the student from friends in Ireland and today he is working with another architect who also frequents this site.

I should hasten to add that the reason this student was able to put together such a nice profile was that he both had an academic career tailored to the field and he had done his fair share of grunt work on several projects.

Let me add one final point: this fall I spoke to a senior person at a golf architecture firm. He told me that the biggest problem with young people coming into the business is that they don't realize there is a lot of hard work involved. In other words, there is far more "getting your hands dirty" than anything glamourous.
Tim Weiman

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2003, 08:15:04 PM »
Sounds like somebody woke up on the wrong side of Lake Michigan.

Dick,
Unless I am missing a deleted post to which your post was responding, your message was uncalled for. What did bnose do to deserve such a tongue-lashing? What did you find so objectionable about his post? What do you know about his job search thus far? I think the more polite response wouldn't have assumed so much.

Save your rants for Pat M.

(I should learn my lesson, a nearly identical post by me, sparked the Del Paso thread debacle)

Brian Noser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2003, 09:15:16 PM »
For One that topics is asking waht he should do get MLA or go to work for some firm. He obviously knows what the job entails. I however am asking for information to get started in the field. Because I am new.Two different questions.

Now for my rant.  ;D

I do not know who you are if you are some upstanding member of the community and I really don't give a crap. Do you see my profile it says NEWBIE therefore I am new to the site. If you would learn how to read the question this would not have been a huge problem. You could have simply posted a few websites that have good info. But you had to be an asshole. The other person knew what he was looking for I how ever do not. So get off your high horse asshole.

thank all others for your INFO.

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Career Change
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2003, 09:18:36 PM »
I hear there's a lot of golf course construction going on in China. Lots of hand work that will give you a good feel for the profession. You gotta know how to build 'em before you can design 'em, might as well learn from the ground up.

Brian Noser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2003, 09:28:38 PM »
Don, I do Have some Idea of what goes into making a golf course. I worked in the business before college. I was not sure about the Pro side of the business so I did not go that route. I am willing to do the work If some one would be kind enough to give me a few sites to where I can get started. That is what the board is for to help people who have the same intrests as your self. I do not seem to find that here so far.

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Career Change
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2003, 09:35:49 PM »
bnose,
Why don't you start by using your name. I think you'll find more help then you could imagine if you had the courtesy to ask for help using your own name.

Go to the Golf Course Builders site, www.gcbaa.org
You'll find just about every company that builds courses and they all have job postings.

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2003, 09:36:26 PM »
I was kinda taken back by some of the responses to a pretty
harmless question. Just because the guy's a "newbie" does it necessarily mean that he's looking for some cushy golf job to be placed in his lap?

I wish I had a good answer for his inquiry. The route that seems to be most advantageous is to get out on a course construction site and get your hands and feet dirty. You'll likely be able to quickly decide if it's the field for you. If it is, hard work and a lot of study may pay off in the long run. Good luck,  and welcome to the sometimes bristly world of GCA.Com.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2003, 09:37:10 PM by Craig_Rokke »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2003, 10:30:53 PM »
bnoser,  I fully appreciate the dismay, disappointment or distaste you and more importantly, those who are regular contributors of this site may feel about my rant.  Once in a while it is sort of cathartic to purge some frustration about pet peave topics.  Just ask Barney JakaB if he don't feel better after one of his legendary rants... ;)

But, behind my frustration are a few observations.  There are a hundred valid methods to seriously look into the career aspects of 'getting into' golf course design.  NONE OF THEM ARE SHORTCUTS.  bnoser tells us he has "worked in the business before college".  Well, how can you 'work in the business' and say "I am willing to do the work If some one would be kind enough to give me a few sites to where I can get started" and not even be willing to do some basic research beyond the superficiality of breesing on into a website like this and ask for some "stepping stones" and a marker for a "way to go"?  This ain't Google or Manpower, you know.  I don't think your chances are too good if you don't have the initiative to get further down the pike than the breesy inquiry you started this post with.  You don't even have a name attached to this inquiry, unless you are 'the' real bnoser? ::)  Who would take that sort of inquiry too seriously?  

Read Tom Doak's reply to the Duke graduate on the same subject that I provided as a url link and started my rant with.  Read Brian Philips reply. These are gentlemen, one who busted his butt to reach a now highly respected position, and one on the way up who demonstrates just how much needs to be sacrificed and how diligent a legitimate candidate must be to work towards this career.  John Gunning (jg7893?) is another who responded and is quite sincere in his determination to get into the business and introduced himself to the group straight up years ago already, an has gone out of his way to meet some of us personally.  

I have seen all sorts of inquiries by young people interested to get some ideas from our GCA.com community over the years.  I am more than willing to give my very deflated .02, to someone that identifies themselves straight up, and posts some real information about themselves and tells us what they know and think about the subjects.  I can't really give advice because I am not in the "business".  So, what I'd say means nothing.  But, the 'newbie' annonymous superficial short-cut sort of approach just puts me off.  bnoser, you haven't put in time to know who we are (or aren't in my case) nor let us know who you are.  We are just two shi's passing in the night at this point.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Brian Noser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2003, 10:46:30 PM »
I am sorry if I seemes like I was just trying an easy way out. but truthfully it is not. I Have sent for a package for the MLA program At Cal Poly to see if that sparks my interest. I was in the proshop for 7 years. and would like to see the dedign side. I have done searches that is how I found this site. I am just wondering if there are any other sites like this one to get more Info I have searched. Just moved to california and looking to change jobs. This seems like the place to begin looking. I am not as educated on the subject as some people that is why I am looking for some other sites to visit so I can further my education on the subject. if you want to know any other info let me know. I have searched. for the past couple of days. I have just started to look but not really in depth yet.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2003, 10:49:25 PM by Brian Noser »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2003, 11:09:10 PM »
For an easy read, but one that gets you into some of the design and build aspects of a project, try to find the book, "Driving the Green" by John Strawn (may be out of print).  For a nuts and bolts book about GCA, get Dr MIke Hurdzans, "Golf Course Architecture".  I recommend books over internet discussions and websites, honestly and sincerely. ;)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2003, 11:25:11 PM »
So, what I'd say means nothing.

Bnose, that's the sum total of what you should take away from Dick's post.

But, stick around, you might learn something here, I know I have. And don't worry, randomly insulting somebody who asks an innocent question is a custom peculiar only to a couple of people here.

Good luck. I wish I had some advice or guidance.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2003, 11:56:46 AM »
Guys:

I have to speak up for Dick Daley on this one because I know he is a gentleman and would actually go far out of his way to help any young person with a sincere interest in the field of golf architecture.

Dick did give this young fellow a little slap, but so what? I remember graduating from college; seeking a particular kind of job, receiving countless rejections before finally someone prominent in the industry (petroleum) gave me a "get your hands dirty" kind of job and told me to forget about what I really wanted to do for at least 10-15 years.

Imagine that. After fifty rejections the best someone says is forget about your real ambition for about 10-15 years. Hell, I was only 23 years old. 10-15 years seemed like a lifetime!

But, guess what? After about that many years I finally got the opportunity to do some of the things my (Ivy League) education trained me to do. Before that, I was basically worthless because I didn't know enough about the industry.

I really suspect that is all Dick Daley is saying. Just like other professions, there is no easy entry to the golf design business. Our friend "bnose" will have to make an effort to contact every architectural and/or construction firm and will probably face numerous rejections before finding someone willing to give him some kind of opportunity. I'm quite sure it won't be anything glamorous. Having spoken to some young people who've recently entered the business, he can expect hard work and long hours away from home, but hopefully an environment where he can really learn something.

He should also understand that the young people who have successfully entered the business are really quality people, e.g., Brian Schneider with Renaissance, Chris Hunt with Crenshaw and Coore/Renaissance. In short, the field, like others, is very competitive.

Personally, I applaud the efforts of people like Tom Doak to give serious young people an opportunity to get started. Tom remembers what it was like starting out. But, any candidate should also understand that without a genuine passion, real smarts and serious commitment, an interview with someone like Tom isn't likely to be easy.

In sum, I think Dick Daley with merely trying to share a real world perspective with bnose. Nothing unkind was meant by it, I'm quite sure.

As for bnose, honestly, it probably isn't a real good idea to come on here calling Dick or anyone else an asshole. Many people from the golf industry follow GCA and such comments aren't likely to win you any points or job interviews.
Tim Weiman

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2003, 12:04:56 PM »
Tim -
I'll assume that the person who gave you advice didn't do so after calling you lazy, assuming that you hadn't done any of the legwork prior to meeting with him, and accusing you of representating all that (was) wrong in the petroleum industry.

In my electronic experience with Dick, I've found him to be all of the things you say. That shouldn't stop me from pointing out that he was rude, presumptuous and boorish in his response to what was a totally innocent request, which Dick could have easily ignored.  

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2003, 12:22:07 PM »
All of this talk about brown-nosers and assholes reminds me:

What's the difference between a brown-noser and an ass-kisser?














Depth perception.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2003, 12:26:18 PM »
Dick's human, like all of us.

I will say that I was a couple clicks away from posting a far more rude comment to bnose because I completely misinterpreted his interest. I saw his thread and was one of the earliest to view it, I think. I thought, judging by the name, the content of the post, and the timing (coming shortly after someone else made a similar request) that it was someone using a "straw man" to poke fun at the group. I'm still not entirely convinced it isn't. 99% convinced, sure. I decided I was better off ignoring it.

I can count on one hand the number of people that I've met who don't think I'm a nice, friendly person (off the site, of course :)), and yet I had a bad reaction to bnose's orginal post. The toughest thing about this site is reading people's posts and guessing their intent.

We're all human, we all make mistakes. Even you, Sean.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2003, 12:50:49 PM »
SPDB:

I just don't see Dick's comments as rude. Almost every young person will get slapped around a little bit regardless of the profession they decide to enter. It's actually quite healthy and an essential part of the learning process.

Let's take this bnose situation, for example. He comes on Golfclubatlas and calls someone an asshole in writing. Don't you think this was taking an awfully big risk that people in the industry who follow this site will be turned off by that kind of behavior? Don't you think bnose could benefit from being told his behavior could well have been counterproductive in terms of his stated objective?

Slapping young people around a bit is fine. That's obviously all Dick Daley meant to do. If we lead bnose to believe Dick was just "rude" and deserved to be called an "asshole, I think we would be doing bnose a big disservice.
Tim Weiman

jg7236

Re:Career Change
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2003, 01:43:35 PM »
Here is a list of some smaller Golf Course Construction companies close to you in California:

Continental Golf, Inc.
Auburn, CA
530-889-1700

Formost Construction Co.
Temecula, CA
909-698-7270

Sema Golf LLC
Scottsdale, AZ
480-951-4086

Here is a list of some of the major companies that do work all over the country:

Landscapes Unlimited, LLC
Lincoln, NE
402-423-6653

Wadsworth Golf Construction
IL/AZ/CA
815-436-8400

Niebur Golf
Colorado Springs, CO
719-527-0313


If you are looking to get as much knowledge of turf in the golf industry here is a great company to work for.  They have turf farms all over California and deal with projects all over the country.

West Coast Turf
Palm Desert, CA
760-346-TURF

Good luck to you, and if you need any more information let me know.

Cheers,

John

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2003, 01:46:57 PM »
I would really take RJ to task for his rant, except for the fact that I had one recently regarding the GD ratings.  He who lives in glass houses, yada, yada, yada.

As a golf course architect, my .02 on this is that Brian shouldn't necessarily go into construction.  I know a lot of guys who went that route, got typecast, and never got over to the design side.  Why not prepare and go straight to an architect, by developing a personal relationship?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

rgkeller

Re:Career Change
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2003, 01:53:31 PM »
Young Mr. Noser:

I have no advice or help for your quest for a career in GCA.

I do have some more general advice.

It is not necessary to call someone acting like an asshole, an "asshole." Assholes are almost always self identifying and your unnecessary appellation serves no real purpose and may, in fact, cause others to categorize you unkindly.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Career Change
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2003, 02:00:24 PM »
We are just two shi's passing in the night ....

Dick --

Let's see now. If I remember my lessons in punctuation (and God [not to mention Tom IV, who's somehow been LED to believe that I'm not LOATH to say so] knows I do!), an apostrophe denotes:

(a) possession; or

(b) a missing letter (or letters).

Judging by the context, it must be (b).

So: What's the missing letter there -- eh?  :o 8) :-X :-*
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

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