The Best New Course In Europe?

[David_Tepper]

Iona Stephen visits DM Kidd's Dunas Course at Terras da Comporta near Lisbon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbOPoYwqGJE&t=74s
 

[Niall C]

Funnily enough just yesterday I was speaking to a friend who is in the industry and he mentioned this course. He's not been but apparently it is getting rave revues from those that have seen it. From the trailer it looks "nice" (didn't watch it all due to the very annoying adverts) and I'm certain I'd enjoy it but somehow it didn't make me go wow. Not sure why.


Anyone played it ?


Niall

[David_Tepper]

The UK Golf Guy has played it:

https://www.ukgolfguy.com/the-dunas-at-terras-da-comporta

[Niall C]

[Niall C]

Hopefully David Jones won't mind me using one of his photos from his blog but the above photo suggests "carry to a wide fairway" followed by "carry to a generously sized and open green". So if you can get the ball airborne you're OK 


Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

Comporta is lovely. Here's my piece on it from last July.

https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/terras-da-comporta-slow-burn

The only real issue I have with it is the stretched out nature of the routing. It was originally routed by Donald Steel a long, long time ago and I can't see anyone walking it as things stand. Even with that it's a clear number one in Portugal.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Play it end of June last year and simply LOVED it.  IMO no question it is best new course on the Continent.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Seems like a ton of maintained rough between the fws and bunkers. In a bunch of pictures I’ve seen it looks like the rough will prevent a lot of running approaches in places too… that seems different than a lot of the other work I’ve seen from David. I Wonder if that is intentional or just how things have started being maintained.


What kind of turf is it? I assume mostly a strain of Bermuda? I guess they could have some Bent or fescue possibilities there too.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Play it end of June last year and simply LOVED it.  IMO no question it is best new course on the Continent.

Do you consider Les Bordes New already existing at this point?

[Adam Lawrence]

Seems like a ton of maintained rough between the fws and bunkers. In a bunch of pictures I’ve seen it looks like the rough will prevent a lot of running approaches in places too… that seems different than a lot of the other work I’ve seen from David. I Wonder if that is intentional or just how things have started being maintained.


What kind of turf is it? I assume mostly a strain of Bermuda? I guess they could have some Bent or fescue possibilities there too.

It’s 100 per cent fescue, apart from the greens, which are creeping bent.

[Tom_Doak]

Play it end of June last year and simply LOVED it.  IMO no question it is best new course on the Continent.

Do you consider Les Bordes New already existing at this point?

I was going to ask the same thing . . . is it better than Les Bordes or are you somehow putting them both in the top 100?


The standard for "the best new course on the Continent" seems drastically lower than the standard for here in the USA.  This looks fine but there must be a lot new courses under construction here that are better?

[Paul Rudovsky]

Play it end of June last year and simply LOVED it.  IMO no question it is best new course on the Continent.



Do you consider Les Bordes New already existing at this point?



I was going to ask the same thing . . . is it better than Les Bordes or are you somehow putting them both in the top 100?


The standard for "the best new course on the Continent" seems drastically lower than the standard for here in the USA.  This looks fine but there must be a lot new courses under construction here that are better?


1.  Absolutely considered Les Bordes New when I made the statement above.  IMO, Comporta is better than Les Bordes New.
2.  Tom...while everyone is going to have different definitions of "drastically", there is no question in my mind that the standard for new courses and for old courses on the Continent (which in my mind excludes GB&I) is lower than the standard in the USA.  As "evidence" of that statement, I would point out that on the current GOLF Mag World Top 100 the highest rated course from the Continent is #41 Morfontaine and there are 23 USA courses rated higher (as well as 12 from GB&I, 4 from AUS/NZ, and 1 from Japan).  Furthermore, the highest any course on the Continent has EVER been rated in a GM World 100 was in 1985 when El Saler (Spain) was #28...2nd highest is Morefontaine's current position cited above.  Finally, the highest ANY course has ever been listed on ANY World Top 100 list I have been able to find was Morfontaine on Golf Digest's 2016 list at #20.  The same numbers for 2023 openings of new courses are 19 for USA and 7 for the Continent.  Note that these numbers exclude 9 hole new courses/projects and "short/par 3" courses.
3.  Per our "Fescue" list (go to https://fescue.github.io) there are 77 "new" courses that have opened thus far in 2024, are  under construction, or on drawing boards in USA...and the same number of the Continent is 26 (including one in Iceland...which stretches the definition of "Continent")
4.  I rest my case

[Niall C]

Paul


It seems to me that your case largely rests on previous rankings. Is there any chance that you have fallen into the herd mentality ? 


Niall

[Paul Rudovsky]

Paul


It seems to me that your case largely rests on previous rankings. Is there any chance that you have fallen into the herd mentality ? 


Niall


Probably true...would be pleased to hear/consider some other reasonably objective set of data/information on the subject...but do not recall that as being offered :-)


I should also point out that when I look at the highest placements on all World 100 lists ever, I am including the following lists that were not compiled by any "rating" organization:


--Ran's four "Custodian" lists published to date here on GCA
--The Outpost Club which has published two World Top 100 lists
--Golf Course Architecture's survey of golf course architects published about 15-20 years ago.


Frankly...that last one may have been the best World Top 100 list ever.  Would love to see Adam Lawrence do something like it again...that might be away to deal with the herd mentality that concerns you and others (although some will then say it is just a different herd).


Looking at the above three...the highest rating for a Continental course on these are:


Custodians--Les Bordes #46, Royal Hague #54, and Chantilly #58
Outpost--Morfontaine #44 (no other courses on the Continent listed)
Architects--Valderrama #45, Morfontaine #54, de Pan #55

[Tom_Doak]

--Golf Course Architecture's survey of golf course architects published about 15-20 years ago.

Frankly...that last one may have been the best World Top 100 list ever.  Would love to see Adam Lawrence do something like it again...that might be away to deal with the herd mentality that concerns you and others (although some will then say it is just a different herd).

You might have liked some of the courses it listed that have been overlooked elsewhere, but the methodology for that list was just as bad as the first GOLF MAGAZINE ranking in 1979 . . . they just asked a bunch of people for their top ten or top twenty courses and counted how many votes each course had, so it was something of a popularity contest.  The courses that I would put in the top 40-75 in the world might not have gotten any votes, but some European courses got into the list on the basis of 2-3 votes from architects who weren't that well-traveled.


As an MIT grad, you should know better than to think that's a good way to rank anything.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Tom--

May have been a very imperfect methodology, but it got excellent results and as a long time businessman, that is what one should look for (being an MIT grad I will be excused for ending a sentence w a preposition!).