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Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Reflecting on the Templates
« on: March 26, 2024, 07:48:40 PM »
I received a text a few days ago about the Biarritz and the generally accepted idea that they were largely designed with the idea that the front portion was meant to be approach.

Likewise, I had been contemplating the redan shot and the one thing lacking so much interpretations of it - including the MacRayBanks ones - is that the chief challenge of the shot is to play a running shot into the front portion of the green which still faces toward the golfer.

Additionally, the Eden hole is so great because the original allows the crafty golfer to use the front portion and the severity of the green to attack the hole along the ground in the wind.

In contrast, the Short hole is defined largely by the fact that it is a forced carry over something.

With all the obsession as to what makes a template hole a template (and the subsequent quality arguments) I see little discourse as to how each one, really, have a defining element about how the ball must traverse the ground in front of the green.

This would seem to be both a defining trait and a fertile area for artistic criticism...

Thoughts? Examples? Other templates?

http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflecting on the Templates
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2024, 12:26:43 AM »
Kyle,


As for other templates, a Cape Hole has a defining feature but it is certainly not about how the ball must traverse the ground in front of the green.


Maybe we should say there are two categories of templates: the par three type and par four/five types.


A Road Hole might be described as having two defining features, one that pertains to the tee shot, the other about the approach shot.
Tim Weiman

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflecting on the Templates
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2024, 05:57:23 AM »
Kyle,


As for other templates, a Cape Hole has a defining feature but it is certainly not about how the ball must traverse the ground in front of the green.


Maybe we should say there are two categories of templates: the par three type and par four/five types.


A Road Hole might be described as having two defining features, one that pertains to the tee shot, the other about the approach shot.


Tim,

Interesting you brought up the Cape Hole because I think it is an example of this in the sense that the tee shot is dictated by what you CAN'T do at the green (run one up the approach) so you're forced to consider the risk off the tee in order to shorten the approach for a more lofted angle.

So I'd counter that the cape is defining that the ball must traverse the ground in front of the green by flying over it.

Similarly, the Road Hole forces the tee shot over the hotel hazard in order to allow the player the chance to traverse the ground in front of the green with a running shot avoiding the road hole bunker and minimizing the impact of the road behind the green.

I'm not attempting to gainsay your point here but my thoughts with the par 3 holes were that they offer a variety of questions in the approach as a defining feature moreso than the configuration of the putting surface itself and my thesis is perhaps that the other templates do that moreso than is readily considered.

An aesthetic template v. a conceptual template.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflecting on the Templates
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2024, 06:22:31 AM »
This is a really interesting subject and I'm excited to see what everyone has to say.

I have some thoughts:

Firstly, I'd suggest that the vast majority of templates are historic templates, simply because a template creeping its way from being a popular hole to being part of the golf canon usually takes a lot of time. I would suggest that many historic templates utilize ground interaction simply because the equipment had much more ground interaction at the time when they were gaining attention.

I think equipment changes and course conditioning changes have shifted many historic templates from being really good holes to something more akin to curiosities or cultural experiences. I think templates come to prominence via the playing conditions of the day, and I would expect to see new templates to come to more prominence, existing templates to change, and some to fade as time influences how we play them. The common run ups discussed are, thus, often archaic, and some templates are much more effected than others by this lost ground game.

The Biarritz makes little sense with modern launch angles (which I've written about).

The literal Eden hole got butcher in 2015 because modern green speeds removed hole locations, however, the Eden template is amenable to flattening, so it makes sense we should see flatter versions.

The Redan (and Gibraltar) suffers from both launch angles and green speeds, which has effectively removed its strategy from the predominant Redan at Riv. It's still possible to play a Redan in the traditional way, but it makes little sense try when a high lofted hybrid or three wood can land soft at those distances.

Simple liability has made many of the blind templates less prominent, say, Alps and Himalayas.

16th at CPC suffers only from having topography that is difficult (at best) to replicate. Long suffers from more width than most courses can practically offer, especially if lengthened to the point of making it even comparable to how it played in MacMacRayBanksColt's eras.

I think Cape, Road, Leven, or Double Plateau holes should mostly be unaffected by modern technology. As they offer a choice to players instead of asking them to pull off a specific task. Though the backward creep of tees may eventually render many of the original holes obsolete.

Some templates that I think the modern game and agronomy is making more common is Short, Golden Bell, the Postage Stamp, punchbowls, and the 17th at Sawgrass. The higher and straighter shots that modern irons provide works well with these shapes, and means these templates should thrive.

In contrast, the Short hole is defined largely by the fact that it is a forced carry over something.

I would note here that MacKenzie specifically points out that running the ball up on Short is an effective strategy when the hole is in the tournament position:

Quote
A well-played run up shot will climb this ridge, curl round the edge of the bunker and lie dead at the hole, but unless the ball has sufficient topspin to climb the ridge it will turn off at right angles and be deeply buried in the bunker to the left

Anyway, like the 7th at Trinity Forest, extremely modern templates do exist now, and they play to the modern game. I think what we consider to be formal templates, versus what we just see as iconic holes, is probably defined by where the designs exist in the zeitgeist even though they are, in my opinion, effectively the same thing.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2024, 06:27:29 AM by Matt Schoolfield »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflecting on the Templates
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2024, 06:54:07 AM »
Seems as though templates and/or discussions about them are more important in the US than in the U.K. Is this a fair comment and if so is there some reason for it?
Atb

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflecting on the Templates
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2024, 08:02:19 AM »
Seems as though templates and/or discussions about them are more important in the US than in the U.K. Is this a fair comment and if so is there some reason for it?
Atb


Thomas-I think it’s a fair comment and the reason is the reverence for what Macdonald, Raynor and Banks built in the U.S.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflecting on the Templates
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2024, 08:54:37 AM »
Seems as though templates and/or discussions about them are more important in the US than in the U.K. Is this a fair comment and if so is there some reason for it?
Atb


Thomas,


Seems like it is fair. The reason? Doesn’t it all go back to CB Macdonald?
Tim Weiman

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflecting on the Templates
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2024, 09:08:37 AM »
Kyle,


As for other templates, a Cape Hole has a defining feature but it is certainly not about how the ball must traverse the ground in front of the green.


Maybe we should say there are two categories of templates: the par three type and par four/five types.


A Road Hole might be described as having two defining features, one that pertains to the tee shot, the other about the approach shot.


Tim,

Interesting you brought up the Cape Hole because I think it is an example of this in the sense that the tee shot is dictated by what you CAN'T do at the green (run one up the approach) so you're forced to consider the risk off the tee in order to shorten the approach for a more lofted angle.

So I'd counter that the cape is defining that the ball must traverse the ground in front of the green by flying over it.

Similarly, the Road Hole forces the tee shot over the hotel hazard in order to allow the player the chance to traverse the ground in front of the green with a running shot avoiding the road hole bunker and minimizing the impact of the road behind the green.

I'm not attempting to gainsay your point here but my thoughts with the par 3 holes were that they offer a variety of questions in the approach as a defining feature moreso than the configuration of the putting surface itself and my thesis is perhaps that the other templates do that moreso than is readily considered.

An aesthetic template v. a conceptual template.


Kyle,


We definitely see Cape differently, but some explanation is in order. My first exposure to Cape was at the Mid Ocean Club at a very young age (<10) when my grandmother took my older sister and I to Bermuda and visited Mid Ocean. My grandmother also saw to it that I was given a ride around the golf course.


The Cape seemed awesome to me. Truthfully, it instilled fear. I really couldn’t imagine safely hitting over the water much less even thinking about what angle I would take!


So, I have never gotten over that initial, powerful impression. To me the hole is about how much risk I would take off the tee. The incentive to be more aggressive is just how long a shot my approach would be, not what type of shot I would play.
Tim Weiman

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflecting on the Templates
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2024, 09:09:18 AM »
Thanks Tim and Tim,
I recall a famous UK architect who used the phrase ‘inspired by’.
May not be exactly the same but pretty close.
 :)
Atb

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflecting on the Templates
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2024, 10:41:14 AM »
I received a text a few days ago about the Biarritz and the generally accepted idea that they were largely designed with the idea that the front portion was meant to be approach.


With all the obsession as to what makes a template hole a template (and the subsequent quality arguments) I see little discourse as to how each one, really, have a defining element about how the ball must traverse the ground in front of the green.

This would seem to be both a defining trait and a fertile area for artistic criticism...

Kyle, this is why I joined GCA.

I hope those with better knowledge than myself opine on this.

Thanks, Peter.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflecting on the Templates
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2024, 05:12:58 AM »
Kyle

A few things have always struck me about Redans.

On the original, trying to bounce the shot through the deep dip shy of the green is a very difficult shot. Not only is that dip about 12 feet, one must carry bunkers and the landing area is blind. Templates are generally much easier to hit the running shot to the green.

Generally, the original Redan doesn’t kick left nearly as much as templates do, which further encourages a low ball flight for back left hole locations. The curling left shape of the greens reflect the slope. The original is a much straighter green with a pronounced slope to the rear.

However, the original has all the bail room to the rear of the green. The hole encourages over clubbing if safety is the first priority. Generally, templates have the worst trouble behind the green because there is often a horrible bunker back there.

I see many templates as fundamentally different holes to the original and that is without discussing elevation change.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflecting on the Templates
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2024, 06:23:35 AM »
Kyle,


As for other templates, a Cape Hole has a defining feature but it is certainly not about how the ball must traverse the ground in front of the green.


Maybe we should say there are two categories of templates: the par three type and par four/five types.


A Road Hole might be described as having two defining features, one that pertains to the tee shot, the other about the approach shot.


Tim,

Interesting you brought up the Cape Hole because I think it is an example of this in the sense that the tee shot is dictated by what you CAN'T do at the green (run one up the approach) so you're forced to consider the risk off the tee in order to shorten the approach for a more lofted angle.

So I'd counter that the cape is defining that the ball must traverse the ground in front of the green by flying over it.

Similarly, the Road Hole forces the tee shot over the hotel hazard in order to allow the player the chance to traverse the ground in front of the green with a running shot avoiding the road hole bunker and minimizing the impact of the road behind the green.

I'm not attempting to gainsay your point here but my thoughts with the par 3 holes were that they offer a variety of questions in the approach as a defining feature moreso than the configuration of the putting surface itself and my thesis is perhaps that the other templates do that moreso than is readily considered.

An aesthetic template v. a conceptual template.


Kyle,


We definitely see Cape differently, but some explanation is in order. My first exposure to Cape was at the Mid Ocean Club at a very young age (<10) when my grandmother took my older sister and I to Bermuda and visited Mid Ocean. My grandmother also saw to it that I was given a ride around the golf course.


The Cape seemed awesome to me. Truthfully, it instilled fear. I really couldn’t imagine safely hitting over the water much less even thinking about what angle I would take!


So, I have never gotten over that initial, powerful impression. To me the hole is about how much risk I would take off the tee. The incentive to be more aggressive is just how long a shot my approach would be, not what type of shot I would play.


The "cape" is at the green though - namely it is surrounded on three sides by hazards or difficulty.

The hazard line off the tee eliminates the direct line to the green. The closer you get to the hazard the shorter your approach to loft it over the green. I guess in the modern era that critical yardage has come back (probably like 180 yards for good players today).

That would imply a 450 yard cape hole!  :o
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflecting on the Templates
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2024, 06:31:57 AM »
Kyle

A few things have always struck me about Redans.

On the original, trying to bounce the shot through the deep dip shy of the green is a very difficult shot. Not only is that dip about 12 feet, one must carry bunkers and the landing area is blind. Templates are generally much easier to hit the running shot to the green.

Generally, the original Redan doesn’t kick left nearly as much as templates do, which further encourages a low ball flight for back left hole locations. The curling left shape of the greens reflect the slope. The original is a much straighter green with a pronounced slope to the rear.

However, the original has all the bail room to the rear of the green. The hole encourages over clubbing if safety is the first priority. Generally, templates have the worst trouble behind the green because there is often a horrible bunker back there.

I see many templates as fundamentally different holes to the original and that is without discussing elevation change.

Ciao


All of this. Though I think the redan itself also has different trouble back left v. back right. The bail out is long and left. Long and right is death - and coincidentally an aggressive miss for a skilled right-handed player.

Almost every redan I've played falls flat on its face for me for this reason. I've not been to North Berwick yet but I suspect the drama element is as much in play as to how the ball actually behaves on the putting surface.

It seems most redan templates (ones that actually replicate a dancing surface of a putting green) are keyed into giving the golfer the satisfaction of seeing their shot perform.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflecting on the Templates
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2024, 07:10:10 AM »
Kyle

A few things have always struck me about Redans.

On the original, trying to bounce the shot through the deep dip shy of the green is a very difficult shot. Not only is that dip about 12 feet, one must carry bunkers and the landing area is blind. Templates are generally much easier to hit the running shot to the green.

Generally, the original Redan doesn’t kick left nearly as much as templates do, which further encourages a low ball flight for back left hole locations. The curling left shape of the greens reflect the slope. The original is a much straighter green with a pronounced slope to the rear.

However, the original has all the bail room to the rear of the green. The hole encourages over clubbing if safety is the first priority. Generally, templates have the worst trouble behind the green because there is often a horrible bunker back there.

I see many templates as fundamentally different holes to the original and that is without discussing elevation change.

Ciao


All of this. Though I think the redan itself also has different trouble back left v. back right. The bail out is long and left. Long and right is death - and coincidentally an aggressive miss for a skilled right-handed player.

Almost every redan I've played falls flat on its face for me for this reason. I've not been to North Berwick yet but I suspect the drama element is as much in play as to how the ball actually behaves on the putting surface.

It seems most redan templates (ones that actually replicate a dancing surface of a putting green) are keyed into giving the golfer the satisfaction of seeing their shot perform.

It’s a common misconception that the right green side bunkers are at the rear of the green. Not so. The bunkers are at the front right of the green. To the rear it’s wide open. Look at google maps. Even if the tee is moved to the far left the bunkers still aren’t at the rear of the green, but the bailout area to the rear will involve flying directly over Lamb.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflecting on the Templates
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2024, 07:52:34 AM »
Sean,


I see what you’re saying in 2D but the “over and right” feeling is due to the landform. Over the right bunkers, for my eye, is still a long right miss and not long straight on miss. The bunkers still more effectively hamper a long right miss.


We are now splitting hairs though. Definitely correct that long straight to left is the miss, IMO!
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflecting on the Templates
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2024, 10:56:01 PM »
Templates Smemplates. I can’t understand the allure of these imitations.
AKA Mayday

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflecting on the Templates
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2024, 08:42:17 AM »
Templates Smemplates. I can’t understand the allure of these imitations.


Heresy :D ;)

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