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David Stamm

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Balboa Park
« on: November 28, 2007, 12:39:59 AM »
I finally played this Billy Bell course last week and it was quite fun. Needless to say there have been changes to the course from what it originally was, but overall the course is definitely worth the visit. It has it's share of quirk and it defintely has some character, as well as some strange/bad(?) holes. I'll leave the desciptions of these features to Pete L since he has played it many times. I would recommend to anyone to play it. The conditions are typical So Cal muni but this should not deter you. It's worth the $30 plus non resident fee. If you walk, be prepared for a work out. It's not over the top, but it's got a decent amount of elevation change. I only took a couple of photo's.

The opening hole's tee shot with the downtown skyline in the background. Par 4 344 yds.



The par 4 5th. 296 yds.




The very tough par 3 6th. 207 yds into the ocean wind. A typical Billy Bell long par 3. Very tough.




The approach to the par 4 12th. 392 yds.




"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2007, 02:45:56 AM »
With a restoration, this could be one hell of a great course.
It has been years since I have played there, but used to play there regularly in the mid-80's.  The 6th is one of SD's best par 3's.

Eric Franzen

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Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2007, 04:13:56 AM »
Thanks for posting theese.

Played Balboa Park in early ´06. It's a fun course, as you say.
I have a vague memory of one or two contrived/weird passages on the back nine that kind of stood out. Looking forward to Pete L's description.

David Stamm

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Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2007, 10:41:41 AM »
Eric, was the one on the back nine you are thinking of 16? That is a zany hole! Very narrow par 5 that plays along the canyon edge and there is a tree in the middle of the fw.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Brad Tufts

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Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2007, 10:56:56 AM »
All I have to say is that the perceived "SoCal muni conditions" kick the tar out of "Boston muni conditions."

Of course now it varies quite a bit:

The good:  Franklin Park.  Always good conditions, the city has put some money into the course, including a brand new clubhouse.  Not pristine, but solid.

The bad:  George Wright.  Slowly coming around, but the first two holes always suffer from lack of drainage, and the 13th fairway is always literally half-pond.  Add in the lack of many defined bunker edges, and it's not good.  Hopefully the recent "friends of George Wright effort and new course managers will bring the conditions more towards FP-level.

The ugly:  Ponkapoag.  The only course I've ever observed "potholes" in the fairways.  I used to play in a jr. tourney there, and the rule sheet said "free lift from any abnormal condition."  Too bad the whole course was in abnormal condition.  I think the Rick Reilly Missing Links incarnation of the course sounds like it's in better shape...

But I digress....back to BP!
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Pete Lavallee

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Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2007, 12:37:58 PM »
With a restoration, this could be one hell of a great course.

RMD,

What exactly would we be restoring, the oiled sand greens or the dirt fairways? Have you played here since the 1995 renovation? I seriously doubt the City of SD is going to spend any more money at Balboa; other than replacing the botched irrigation system which is supposed to cost a cool $1MM!

Seriously, when the course was renovated in 1995 the greens had devolved into mere circles; the old second hole had the only interesting contour with its double tiered green. Were there some really great greens there which had slipped away due to shoddy maintenance? I've been a member there since 1990 and in my opinion the renovation made the course better: USGA greens which are easily maintained, saving the really good holes, restoring 16, which had been abandoned for over 60 years and most importantly reducing the City's liability risk caused by too many holes with busy streets on the right.

As a member all I want is for them to fix the irrigation system. There are leaks springing up everywhere. You end up with a quagmire soon followed by hardpan due to a lack of throw. There is a rumor that the "Friends Of Torrey Pines" will donate some of their $3.2MM payment from the 2008 US Open to repair the system. It would also be nice to try and undo the mess that we call the 4th hole, the shortest par 5 in the County. :'(
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 12:39:37 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

David Stamm

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Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2007, 03:45:08 PM »
Pete, where or what was the original 16th?

The 5th is, uh, very unique.... :-\
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Pete Lavallee

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Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2007, 06:35:52 PM »
Here's a brief history of BPGC:

The course was designed by Willaim Park Bell and opened in 1915 with oiled sand greens and dirt fairways. A 1931 WPA project allowed the irrigation to be installed and the course was grassed at that time. I assume Billy Bell Sr. was responsible. It appeared to me that those original greens were just built on dirt, with no acomadation to drainage. Sam Snead set the course record of 60 while stationed here in SD in the Navy in 1943. Quite a round with 2 eagles, 8 birdies and no bogies. The score card is still displayed in the business office in the clubhouse lobby. Mark Wiebe did shoot a 62 in the City Am. before turning pro for the second best round recorded there.

The City undertook a $1.8MM renovation which started in 1993 and was completed in 1995. Their prime motivation was to reduce their risk of liability with several greens located on the perimeter of the property namely #17 and #18. The 17th green was moved away from Pershing Dr. and the 18th was shortened from a short par 5 to a short par 4, eliminating the risk of drives on 18 slicing onto the street. The 2cnd hole was changed to a par 5 and the tee moved forward to eliminate the chance of being hit from drives on #1. The project was carried out by the firm of Halsey Daray and added a completely new irrigation system and total reconstruction of all 18 greens to USGA spec. Unfortunately the City went low bid on the irrigation project and got just what they paid for. It's sprining leaks everywhere and is slated to be completely replaced as soon as someone finds the $1MM needed to complete the job.

The course is pretty much the same as ther original except for the following changes:

2  Changed from a driveable par 4 to a par 5. The new green sits hard by the canyon slope with native vegatation; a good risk reward hole.

3  Changed to a par 4 from a par 5 with a new tee on the hill slope allowing golfers to drive over the native to a semi blind landing area; green site unchanged.

4  Originally a staight par 4 this hole demonstrares the need for professional golf course architects to carry out changes to a golf course. When the renovation was carried out it was determined that the 3 of the greens could be rebuilt inhouse after observing how the new ones were built. #5 and #8 were rebuilt inhouse; both turned out well and were improvements on the previous greens. #4 was the last to be done. However just before the construction started a property line dispute started with the owner of the lot near the green. People were jumping the chain link fence to retrieve lost balls and were disturbing the owners Chow dogs. Rather than placate the owner the City decided to relocate the green on the hillside to the left; all work was done inhouse. The first iteration had serious errosion problems because slopes were cut too steeply (something a profession never would have done) and the entire fairway had to be regraded. The green is still totally unpinnable in the front left, as balls will not come to rest there. The green is rediculously small as is, so loosing a full 1/4 of it makes the situation even worse.

12  Used to be a 190 yard par 3 and was changed to a 390 yard par 4. The hole has a great view of downtown behind the skyline green.

13  This 134 yard drop shot par 3 over a canyon was added.

15  This was a straight short par 4. the new hole is L shaped and allows peole to cut the corner and drive the green.

16  This hole was abandoned along with a par 3 that proceeded it, some time in the 1930's and played as 2 short par 4's. The first one had a crazy fairway, ridiculously sloped, to an after thought green just in front of the pine tree. You then teed off on the other side of the pine tree to the present green site. The hole was resurrected and originally had the fairway bunker on the right side, to encourage golfers to play away from the road on the right hand side. However the new fairway was very frim and any tee shot which curved right to left would just roll off the fairway into the canyon. The bunker was moved to the left to save shots from going into the canyon.

17  Green moved 50 yards to the left; you can still see the old green pad next to the fence.

18  Shortened to a par 4; the old hole was a slog up the rather steep hill and someone took MacKenzie's advice: if you have a lousy hole shorten it to get it over with quicker!
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 06:44:04 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2007, 06:39:05 PM »
Pete,
One problem, Billy Bell wasn't designing courses yet in 1915. that wouldn't actually happen until about 1920. Only after serving as superintendent at Annandale and Pasadena (Altadena) and under the watchful eyes of George O'Neil and Jack Croke. (and Willie Watson shortly thereafter)

Pete Lavallee

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Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2007, 06:46:15 PM »
That's interesting; everything I've read always credits Billy Bell Sr with the design of Balboa Park. If it wasn't Bell who originally routed the course do you have any idea who did it?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

David Stamm

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Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2007, 07:01:41 PM »
If I had to guess, perhaps WW.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom Jefferson

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Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2007, 10:01:02 PM »
What a pleasure to see a post of Balboa Park GC!!  

I had the pleasure of playing there scores of times as a youth in the 1960s.  It was the venue for numerous tournaments for the outstanding San Diego Junior Golf Association, as well as being a course owned (as was/is the Torrey Pines complex) by the city of San Diego, and therefore a course that offered high school golf team players the tremendous value of a play card for $1.50 for up to 16 plays a month!!  

Additionally, I played there numerous times with my working class father, afternoons, after his days spent at the aircraft factory, mostly on the adjoining 9 hole course (par 31 or so)....thanks Dad for all that!

The Balboa course as I remember it was a journey through the canyons and onto the ridges above, through scrub and onto slow putting greens. I cared nothing back then about the architecture, only that I was out there on a fanciful course, indulging myself in the pull of the game, and in my youthful attempts to score, score, score.  

Many short par 4 holes, as depicted by the photo of #5.  #16 as we played it was the 'hogback' hole, a short 4 par along a narrow ridge, falling off in each direction into pure chaparral scrub and certain dougle bogey or worse...with the sense of 'single file down the center of the fairway.'

It was golf without the conditioning we have come to expect...and I believe it was my first exposure to Kikiyu...and from the photos it is still there.

The course reeked of old city style golf, a musty clubhouse, a tightly located and tiny putting green, ringed by a boxwood hedge, a tiny golf shop with literally barrels of used clubs for sale, a practice tee with synthetic turf mats hitting irregularly shaped and hand striped balls across a chasm to a funnel shaped range.  It was the old Harding Park clubhouse of the SF golf scene located in the south of the state, the cypress of the bay area replaced by eucalyptus and chaparral and mediterrean climate and a wonderful youthful life.

The holes that stand out in my memory....the first as depicted, without the stands of trees left and right...the par three 6th, playing east (not into the north wind) and a real definer of how you were playing...the following par 5 seventh, curving up and around the neighboring spanish style homes out of bounds and across the adjoining street....the series of short 4 pars in the middle of the routing...and the finishing quartet of holes, with the drop shot 17th almost literally into the traffic of Pershing Blvd., and finally the engineered ramp up the par 5 18th, known to the locals as 'cardiac hill', the green hard against and below the old clubhouse windows.  

High school matches finishing in the dark, junior tournaments there after an anxious bus ride across town, clubs on the seat near me..... golf with my Dad in those great formative years.  Junior golf, trying to play up to the likes of Lon Hinkle, the Trompas brothers, John and Ric Shroeder, Morris Hatalsky, Craig Stadler.

And always played with the post world war two emerging skyline in the distance, and surrounded by the legend of Sam Snead in his time there during the war, the stories of his great golf there, and his 'personal par' of 67.

Thanks for the memories!!!!  Wow.

Tom
the pres

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2007, 11:50:55 PM »
Pete — I am glad that Tommy chimed in because your historical timeline was really bothering me. We assisted the NGF complete a study about the course and I recall it was the home of the first San Diego Club — and that Bell had nothing to do with that "ancient" layout. I do not have my full report at hand as I am using my wife's laptop at the moment.

Balboa is a great layout in terms of bones...but it needs loads of reconstructive surgery. Some of the bumpy mounds that have sprung up are horrible, awful and malpractice comes to mind as a descriptive. I will only go on record here as saying that many of the changes in routing (there are FAR MORE than Pete describes) are fair to OK...with a few good bits. But...and this is the big "but"...the detailing would make Billy Bell turn over and over and over in his grave. That's three times a dead guy would have to turn over, so you get the drift.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Pete Lavallee

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Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2007, 11:59:53 AM »
Forrest,

Are you confusing the 9 hole course that was located at Park Blvd. and Upas St.and was officially called San Diego CC with Balboa? This would be less than a mile NW of the real Balboa. This course lasted only a few years before relocating to the Pt. Loma area (Rosecrans and Barnett) where A G Spaulding built the second SD CC; the newly revised Sail Ho! GC, which was part of the recently decommisioned Naval Training Center now sits there.

It is certainly possible that Billy Bell Sr. did not route the original course in 1915, with its dirt fairways and sand greens. I am fairly confident he was involved in the construction of real greens which coinsided with the installation of irrigation in 1931, as I have seen his plan for the 9 hole course across the street which is dated 1931.

I first played Balboa Park in the mid 1980's and it has always been my opinion the the beauty of the course was in the routing. The detail work at that point was frankly nonexistant. When, pray tell, was the high point of the detailing at Balboa and who did the original routing?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2007, 12:27:17 PM »
Tommy, would please get off dumpdorrell.com and provide some input here?
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Tom Huckaby

Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2007, 12:52:26 PM »
That brings up an interesting question, Lynn.  As a fine upstanding UCLA grad, do you root for or against the Bruins tomorrow?

Of course you want to beat USC.  But if you do so, that means more Dorrell, maybe even a contract extension.  A sound thrashing means he's gone, almost certainly.

Not so easy, is it?

BTW, my alma mater dumped yours out of the NCAA men's soccer playoffs a few days ago, and we move on to dump Mucci's out tomorrow.  Meanwhile my life-long football love could help you achieve your dumpdorrell aims tomorrow also.  It's a fun time to be me.   ;D

David Stamm

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Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2007, 12:56:08 PM »


I first played Balboa Park in the mid 1980's and it has always been my opinion the the beauty of the course was in the routing.  


I would agree Pete. The course has a pretty solid routing, in fact it is it's strength. I also agree, to what do you restore it to? Are there drawings or photos of the course in it's infancy?
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2007, 01:45:01 PM »
Tom don't ask tough questions, however I am a long range kind of guy.

David and Pete, you guys are dreaming on restoration, unless of course the Friends of Balboa Park take over the property.

It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

David Stamm

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Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2007, 01:49:46 PM »


David and Pete, you guys are dreaming on restoration, unless of course the Friends of Balboa Park take over the property.




Lynn, I by no means am thinking of restoration. My point to Pete was what he was basically saying to Robert Deruntz. What is there to restore? Do we even know? I agree, if there was a restoration possible, it wouldn't happen until someone else was in place to manage the facility. I believe American is there, which makes that nigh on impossible.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2007, 03:14:23 PM »
Pete — No, the original course was in the same area, but the clubhouse was originally across the canyon as I recall it being recorded. I am not sure the name, but I do believe it was not Balboa at the onset. Yes, Billy Bell came in and transformed the original course to grass and "completed" it, which I beleive involved a fairly radical departure from the early routing — obviously so if the clubhouse was off to the other side.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Pete Lavallee

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Re:Balboa Park
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2007, 04:29:31 PM »
David and Pete, you guys are dreaming on restoration, unless of course the Friends of Balboa Park take over the property.

I'm holding out hope; it might happen if there be a $3.2MM tax break involved? It helps to have locals on the USGA Executive Board you know. ;)

Forrest,

I have also heard the Clubhouse was located differently at one point. I seem to recall hearing it was by the 7th green, which is at the top of the hill, now the furthest point from the Clubhouse. I've also heard there was once a hole that snaked through the gully in the current driving range. Someone also indicated that the 18th fairway was graded as a result of the 1931 WPA project. Of course these are all uncororbarated verbal accounts. I'd be very interested in any additional information you would care to share.

Any word on exactly who did the original routing, if it wasn't Billy Bell Sr.?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Greg Hohman

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Re: Balboa Park
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2024, 11:40:28 PM »
Bumping this thread after receiving the City of San Diego Golf Division's latest newsletter, which poses the question: "Today it's called Balboa Park Golf Course, but when we first opened in 1919, we went by another name. Click the image to see what it was." Answer: "On April 5th, 1919, we opened to the public as San Diego's first municipal golf course — then known as Golden Hill Golf Links."

Golden Hill is the name of an adjoining neighborhood.

So, what was there between 1919 and 1933, the year Bell's course opened?

Did I miss an explanation in another thread? I can contact the Golf Division if necessary.
newmonumentsgc.com

Greg Hohman

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Re: Balboa Park
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2024, 05:57:54 PM »
For Bell’s routing, see Reply 414 in Ed Oden’s compilation thread:

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43053.msg927852.html#msg927852
newmonumentsgc.com

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