OT is Wyndham Clark correct?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

But the pro’s also use the rules to gain an unfair advantage.

It's not unfair if it's available to all. And sometimes the rules can help you. Doesn't mean they're cheating the system.

Because people can and learn nearly all the rules doesn’t mean there aren’t too many, overcomplicated and at times difficult to understand.

Find a sport where the casual fan knows all of the Rules. I'll hang up and listen.

What we essentially have now is the vast majority of golfers play to what they believe are the rules.

The NHL, MLB, and NFL rule books are quite long as well. And they play on uniform surfaces, with one "form" of play.

[Peter Sayegh]

Because people can and learn nearly all the rules doesn’t mean there aren’t too many, overcomplicated and at times difficult to understand.

What we essentially have now is the vast majority of golfers play to what they believe are the rules. I would venture to guess that a significant percentage of golfers haven’t read a rule book in over five years.
Ciao

Spot on.

[Peter Sayegh]

I'll hang up and listen.


The NHL, MLB, and NFL rule books are quite long as well. And they play on uniform surfaces, with one "form" of play.

What's your point here Erik?

[Kalen Braley]

I'll hang up and listen.


The NHL, MLB, and NFL rule books are quite long as well. And they play on uniform surfaces, with one "form" of play.

What's your point here Erik?

I think his point is, (which I agree with)

Those sports also have complicated rules book and they play on a much smaller field with a known playing area....unlike golf which is played over hundreds of acres where a lot more nuanced and one off scenarios may arise that could require a judgement or ruling.

At least golf is non-contact sport...well most of the time. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

What's your point here Erik?

Kalen got it.

[Edward Glidewell]

While it's not exactly the same for a variety of reasons (obviously), this reminds me a bit of when people complain that laws are too complicated and Congress (or whatever other applicable body) should write simple, short, and easy to understand laws.


That would be a disaster in practice because nearly everything would have to be litigated down to the meaning of each word. You need specificity to make enforcement as uniform as possible.


The Rules of Golf are similar in that the goal is to ensure that players facing essentially the same scenario are treated the same. With simple rules, many more situations would come down to individual judgment and be dealt with differently -- e.g., two players could hit it into the same place at different times and one gets free relief and one doesn't because the rule is ambiguous.

[JLahrman]

The rules could be much shorter and cover 98% of situations perfectly. But that’s not good enough; they need to cover 100% of situations. And that last 2% gets crazy.

This is a real key point. The old 80/20 rule often gets cited, but as far as golf goes I think it's more like 95/20. 95% of 18-hole matches could probably be regulated by 20% of the current rulebook.


But the issue is some of the less frequent situations that do occur. The rules do need to address these situations because in nearly every competitive round there isn't an unbiased rules official onhand. There is a player and his/her competitors, neither of whom can be assumed to be unbiased (even if they are well-intentioned). The rules have to try to address these situations because the players shouldn't have to be creating their own solution to the situation. Players should be responsible for following the rules, but they shouldn't be tasked with writing the rules on the fly.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Go back to playing matchplay and we can get rid of almost all of the rules. Just ask your opponent and he can decide.


I think that on a website where one of the overarching mantras is “golf isn’t fair”….


…you get the drift.

[Paul Jones]

Go back to playing matchplay and we can get rid of almost all of the rules. Just ask your opponent and he can decide.


I think that on a website where one of the overarching mantras is “golf isn’t fair”….


…you get the drift.

In match play, no field to protect, but you still cannot knowing break a rule. If both do not know the rule, they can agree upon away to proceed.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Why didn't they let Malnati drop right next to the hole yesterday? I know what the rule is but I'm sure he could have taken a stance avoiding the sprinkler.

Nah, that was a fair drop.  The sprinkler head was about two feet left of his ball.  Maybe if he took a slightly awkward stance he could have straddled the sprinkler head.  But it wouldn't have been a typical stance.  And he was lucky that he was close to the fringe and the definition of general area of the golf course doesn't differentiate between thick rough and fringe.  They are both the same in the eyes of the rules.

[Jim_Coleman]

   The test isn’t whether one can avoid standing on the sprinkler head. If that were the test, one would never get relief.

[Sean_A]

But the pro’s also use the rules to gain an unfair advantage.

It's not unfair if it's available to all. And sometimes the rules can help you. Doesn't mean they're cheating the system.

Because people can and learn nearly all the rules doesn’t mean there aren’t too many, overcomplicated and at times difficult to understand.

Find a sport where the casual fan knows all of the Rules. I'll hang up and listen.

What we essentially have now is the vast majority of golfers play to what they believe are the rules.

The NHL, MLB, and NFL rule books are quite long as well. And they play on uniform surfaces, with one "form" of play.

Other sports have refs who are meant to know the rules to call the game. And rules are adjusted for the level of competition. Non elite golfers  essentially adjust the rules for their level of play and enjoyment, So long as everyone understands what is going on it’s fine. The rules aren’t the bible.

Ciao

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Other sports have refs who are meant to know the rules to call the game. And rules are adjusted for the level of competition. Non elite golfers  essentially adjust the rules for their level of play and enjoyment, So long as everyone understands what is going on it’s fine. The rules aren’t the bible.

Nice straw man.

[Rob Marshall]

People should lay off Clark!  Are you telling me other pro's don't bend the rule and improve their lie? Clark just happened to have a camera person take an up close, slo mo shot of him doing it.

I'm telling you he should get used to cameras watching.
He's pretty darn good so the world will be watching.
I really don't remember this being very common and I've watched 50 years of televised golf.
Watson called out Player, the world called out Reed.
Not many other instances.
It wasn't that his ball moved--that was hard to see with the naked eye from above no less.
But he certainly soled his club more than "lightly" or "the weight" of the club.
That's risky as far as the ball moving, and could also be risky in terms of improving how it lies.

Nonetheless, he and other serious players would do well to learn the rules, rather than bemoaning they are too complicated.
It doesn't take that long.

Can you ground the club with the weight of your club and not improve your lie? Erik said you can "slightly improve your lie". What's slightly? If you want to play the ball as it lies, you shouldn't be allowed to ground your club in the rough similar to a bunker.

[Niall C]

Other sports have refs who are meant to know the rules to call the game. And rules are adjusted for the level of competition. Non elite golfers  essentially adjust the rules for their level of play and enjoyment, So long as everyone understands what is going on it’s fine. The rules aren’t the bible.

Nice straw man.

Nonsense

[Sean_A]

Other sports have refs who are meant to know the rules to call the game. And rules are adjusted for the level of competition. Non elite golfers  essentially adjust the rules for their level of play and enjoyment, So long as everyone understands what is going on it’s fine. The rules aren’t the bible.

Nice straw man.

Nonsense

I didn’t understand the response either. 💁

Ciao

[Wayne_Kozun]

The test isn’t whether one can avoid standing on the sprinkler head. If that were the test, one would never get relief.

I played in a Pro-Am with a pro who played several times with Seve on the Euro tour.  He said that Seve would always ask for relief in situations like this but when his competitors asked for relief he would say " No no no".

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Nonsense

It's not nonsense. He's talking about something that nobody's really talked about here if only to defeat it. I haven't seen others saying "the rules are the bible" in this topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[Ben Hollerbach]

But the pro’s also use the rules to gain an unfair advantage.

It's not unfair if it's available to all. And sometimes the rules can help you. Doesn't mean they're cheating the system.

Because people can and learn nearly all the rules doesn’t mean there aren’t too many, overcomplicated and at times difficult to understand.

Find a sport where the casual fan knows all of the Rules. I'll hang up and listen.

What we essentially have now is the vast majority of golfers play to what they believe are the rules.

The NHL, MLB, and NFL rule books are quite long as well. And they play on uniform surfaces, with one "form" of play.

Other sports have refs who are meant to know the rules to call the game.
Ciao

If you play a sport and rely on the refs to know and call all the rules, you're letting yourself be taken advantage of. Just consider the reaction to the overtime at the Superbowl where the 49ers players were surprised by the overtime rules change for the playoffs and the Chiefs players were prepared for it. Who ended up winning the game?

As a player of any game knowing the rules is good strategy. not knowing the rules will only cost you.

[Ben Hollerbach]

The test isn’t whether one can avoid standing on the sprinkler head. If that were the test, one would never get relief.

I played in a Pro-Am with a pro who played several times with Seve on the Euro tour.  He said that Seve would always ask for relief in situations like this but when his competitors asked for relief he would say " No no no".

There was a pretty good story Ken Green recently told on the NLU podcast about playing with Seve in a Masters. He tried to claim some Masters local rule to get a better lie and Ken called him on it.

[Rob Marshall]

The test isn’t whether one can avoid standing on the sprinkler head. If that were the test, one would never get relief.

I played in a Pro-Am with a pro who played several times with Seve on the Euro tour.  He said that Seve would always ask for relief in situations like this but when his competitors asked for relief he would say " No no no".

Jerry Stahl, long time member of Oak Hill and USGA official gave a speech at the Country Club of Rochester telling a story about his interactions with the big three. His story about Jack was about Jack trying to get relief from what he perceived as crowd or cart damage at the Masters. Jerry told him no and Jack gave him a little grief and argued his point. Jerry said something to the effect of "not today Jack". Jack winked at him and played away. All the players are trying to get an advantage. Even the GOAT.

[Sean_A]

But the pro’s also use the rules to gain an unfair advantage.

It's not unfair if it's available to all. And sometimes the rules can help you. Doesn't mean they're cheating the system.

Because people can and learn nearly all the rules doesn’t mean there aren’t too many, overcomplicated and at times difficult to understand.

Find a sport where the casual fan knows all of the Rules. I'll hang up and listen.

What we essentially have now is the vast majority of golfers play to what they believe are the rules.

The NHL, MLB, and NFL rule books are quite long as well. And they play on uniform surfaces, with one "form" of play.

Other sports have refs who are meant to know the rules to call the game.
Ciao

If you play a sport and rely on the refs to know and call all the rules, you're letting yourself be taken advantage of. Just consider the reaction to the overtime at the Superbowl where the 49ers players were surprised by the overtime rules change for the playoffs and the Chiefs players were prepared for it. Who ended up winning the game?

As a player of any game knowing the rules is good strategy. not knowing the rules will only cost you.

Of course. That is always the case. I am pointing out that refs are professionals at the job. No player is. Also, coaches will point things out to players especially if a play is centred around taking advantage. I think folks know exactly what what I am talking about. There is a difference between golf and sports with refs following the game.

Ciao

[Jeff Evagues]

The test isn’t whether one can avoid standing on the sprinkler head. If that were the test, one would never get relief.

I played in a Pro-Am with a pro who played several times with Seve on the Euro tour.  He said that Seve would always ask for relief in situations like this but when his competitors asked for relief he would say " No no no".

Not a surprise, he was a miserable human being.

[Jim_Coleman]

   There’s a story that may be true. In a Ryder Cup match, Azinger stood over a ball, shaking his head and looking annoyed. Seve came over and Azinger asked for free relief. Seve declined the request. Azinger then informed Seve that it was his ball.

[Rob Marshall]

The test isn’t whether one can avoid standing on the sprinkler head. If that were the test, one would never get relief.

I played in a Pro-Am with a pro who played several times with Seve on the Euro tour.  He said that Seve would always ask for relief in situations like this but when his competitors asked for relief he would say " No no no".

Not a surprise, he was a miserable human being.

So you personally knew Seve?