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V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
OT-ish - Settlement in (Maybe) Four Parts - 1 (for now)
« on: March 19, 2024, 05:13:09 AM »
If you're on this board, you think about golf --in all its aspects -- a lot, and I'm sure, like me, there's ebbs and flows in all of that storehouse...your game, the elite game on TV, fine holes, fine courses, chests full of treasured experiences, things you can't believe have changed, how you have changed and what you valued, lessons learned and unlearned... Perhaps its always in flux, even principles which evolve and become nuanced.


But catching my breath at the most current station, I've settled on a few things as they are happening/have been happening.


Part 1 (for now) - Settlement about Sawgrass.


In a 2022 post Kalen referenced recently, I said the best three candidates for a quintessential American course were Pine Valley, ANGC, Sawgrass.  I don't know if any of that registers, but this weekend I felt as if Sawgrass was rather than quintessence, a different label...a boundary line which surpassing architecture solves, and yet other excellent, unique architecture fails to solve. 


That boundary line is this: Sawgrass is an amazing and rewarding course to watch elites play on for my entertainment and appreciation of the game's highest skill.  It is nearly a horror of architecture for the common, modest, humble, flawed, even if proficient, game most, if not all of US play. 


Of dozens of specific examples, I cite the architecture of the 2nd hole, which even if played at the 507 Blue, or 470 W distance is generally speaking, a 3 shot hole for most of us...now recall or re-examine or re-watch on the internet play from this weekend when several pros got into that kitchen table sized pot front/side left of the green...


Isn't a joy of watching golf on TV with your Fritos and insulin to observe the pros have to put one knee flat on the bunker rim and take those wide awkward stances to access the ball with any surety...and oh what great shots they come up with...


Jesus, on Friday I can't remember which two, but their shots ended up side by side in that pot and one had to be marked, and both played amazing 30-35 yard shots to an uphill pin with most of their bodies and swings outside its margins...And for a world elite who's there in TWO, who was caught out trying to make a 3? ...that's just fine and an apt amusement...a superb design for sitting at home with the boob tube on and thinking all my wonderful thoughts about golf that I do.


But for most of us, playing Sawgrass, who are going to be in that pot in 3 or 4, if at all, that's not a joyous event in the least; what that is... is an 8 or a pickup.  There's like 50 or more of you GCA er's who have described your knee, joint, shoulder and hip maladies or replacement woes here (and God bless you for your endurance and continued ardor for the game) but you're not playing that fucking shot, no less if you do, the $700 day at Sawgrass is likely to be ruined by your injury or your mood being like +5 or +6 after two holes. Yeah that's the way to start...


I know some out there might be thinking, well what's the chances your one or two plays at Sawgrass are going to result in that bunker and that situation...or perhaps that well, in my game, I'd be there in two just like the pros, so it translates the challenge...maybe so, but is that for the lot of us...perhaps as high as 80% of the players here?...and even if YOU would be there in two, what's your facility to hit that shot and not make an 8 or worse from the bunker?


And if not on #2...Sawgrass is littered with examples of instant, game-over shit for the (albeit widely-defined) "regular" player.  Water or bunkers or trees or situations that just lead to pickups and desultory results.  Your game's slightest cracks (of which my own resemble the Dead Sea Scrolls) projects to be under constant threat...It's a damn good bet most of us will not play our regular game there.  And I'm not even going to 17...and its dazzling controversies.


There might be others who say, well then what do you think of some of the great international courses that have similar "tight-quarters" awkward stance pots among their penal features?  First, I don't say this to blunt such a question, but there was an originally an idea of Sawgrass quintessence in "American" canon. My less-fettered answer is that many (most) of those (it seems to my understanding) developed organically with the native features and trodding of use as players and their play changed/amended their route...Like any quintessential American golf course would be, Sawgrass is planned. These features were designed.


I suppose if you're wealthy or just hit at the Jai Alai, in a lovely drunken match with close friends, and you don't care -in fact start to enjoy*** - that "7" wins several holes (as long as you don't run out of balls) then under those rarer circumstances, ok, but otherwise, I'm fine with watching the horse race I see there from afar...that architecture, while great, while novel, unique, perhaps even quintessentially American, or modern as TD put it...is not to serve my own game's enjoyment, it is to do something else...which as I say it does exceedingly well...a boon to the game and its profitable enjoyment by millions, but not for common play, which a surpassing course tends to better address.


Perhaps all this prolix is boiled down into I've settled for myself that a course can be great, compelling, entertaining to behold, well-regarded, but I can have zero interest in playing my golf over its architecture.  Like a wine that I know inside and out, when and where the grapes were harvested, the type of oak that held the fermenting , the storage and bottling process...other comparable similar wines from nearby and disparate regions that I also know and/or have seen extensive connoisseur comment...it all doesn't matter, if it tastes like shit or gives me heartburn.  I think many of us playing Sawgrass in objective circumstances, would find that result more than, "let me get a case of this."


*** I remember a hot humid day like this at Bedford with my best friend, original golfing buddy when we were both shit and by the back nine our "match" became a go-with it neck and neck comedy of tops, whizzers, duffs plugged bunker lies and careening trees...We both knew there were no winners that day, and so as each of us hit the next terrible shot, the other mouthed "marching music" in a loose soundtrack covering Napoleon's retreat out of Russia..."da  -duhda - duh...dadduh da.. the match was tied and I beat him in medal...99 to his 100... the highest score I'd had for maybe 15 years at that point and haven't yet worsened since that afternoon.



"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: OT-ish - Settlement in (Maybe) Four Parts - 1 (for now)
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2024, 08:46:49 AM »
I mean, if there was one course on earth where you could safely say it was meant to be testing for the professionals and amateurs should just either deal with the challenges or not go . . . wouldn't that be the TPC at Sawgrass?

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT-ish - Settlement in (Maybe) Four Parts - 1 (for now)
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2024, 09:35:40 AM »
I went to a practice round a few years ago and came away with the same impression as Vin. I thoroughly enjoyed watching elite players get around but have no desire to return as a player. I can pay far less to torture myself in a variety of pursuits not limited to golf.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT-ish - Settlement in (Maybe) Four Parts - 1 (for now)
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2024, 12:39:42 PM »
I mean, if there was one course on earth where you could safely say it was meant to be testing for the professionals and amateurs should just either deal with the challenges or not go . . . wouldn't that be the TPC at Sawgrass?


Tom,

I used to think this of Sawgrass, but it's becoming difficult.  -20 winning score, with nearly 20 players finishing at -10 or better?

Outside of a tricked up US Open course, I'm not sure what is really testing to these guys anymore...

P.S.  Just found a link that showed your course in Houston is tougher than Sawgrass..
« Last Edit: March 19, 2024, 12:42:58 PM by Kalen Braley »

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT-ish - Settlement in (Maybe) Four Parts - 1 (for now)
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2024, 01:57:50 PM »
I thought last weekend's tournament was outstanding.  I haven't been watching lots of TV golf, but I have a bit more free time lately and I laid around watching the show this past weekend.  Even the fans seemed reasonably well behaved.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT-ish - Settlement in (Maybe) Four Parts - 1 (for now)
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2024, 02:09:16 PM »
For the golf course architecture fan and especially a Pete Dye fan it’s a course you should see but not necessarily play.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: OT-ish - Settlement in (Maybe) Four Parts - 1 (for now)
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2024, 03:09:19 PM »


 Just found a link that showed your course in Houston is tougher than Sawgrass..



That's wild.  But actually, not really.  There are several factors at play:


1.  Memorial Park is longer.
2.  Memorial Park has more trees in play.
3.  Memorial Park has more difficult rough right at the edge of the fairway.


4.  The players are still getting to know Memorial.  I think once they get comfortable with a course, and comfortable with what the winning score might be, they start scoring lower.  [The winning score last year was way lower than the first couple of tournaments.]  The players have internalized where not to miss, without the negative thinking about missing.




Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT-ish - Settlement in (Maybe) Four Parts - 1 (for now)
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2024, 03:22:12 PM »
Outside of a tricked up US Open course, I'm not sure what is really testing to these guys anymore...
Bad weather.
And yet for the most part their events are played in prime time for good weather.
Atb

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT-ish - Settlement in (Maybe) Four Parts - 1 (for now)
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2024, 06:28:08 PM »
Eliminating Major venues, the top 10 difficult courses last year (in order of relative difficulty in relation to par)

1) Torrey Pines South
2)  Muirfield Village
3)  Innisbrook
4)  Spyglass
5)  Colonial
6)  Bay Hill
7)  Memorial Park
8)  TPC Sawgrass
9)  PGA National
10)  Quail Hollow

P.S. And the year before it was 5th on the list, 3 spots higher than TPC Sawgrass
« Last Edit: March 19, 2024, 06:30:58 PM by Kalen Braley »

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT-ish - Settlement in (Maybe) Four Parts - 1 (for now)
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2024, 07:54:58 PM »
Eliminating Major venues, the top 10 difficult courses last year (in order of relative difficulty in relation to par)

1) Torrey Pines South
2)  Muirfield Village
3)  Innisbrook
4)  Spyglass
5)  Colonial
6)  Bay Hill
7)  Memorial Park
8)  TPC Sawgrass
9)  PGA National
10)  Quail Hollow

P.S. And the year before it was 5th on the list, 3 spots higher than TPC Sawgrass
I think it's important to talk about difficulty as length-adjusted difficulty. If we are talking about the "toughest" course only in relationship to par, we'll likely just be talking about the longest.
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David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT-ish - Settlement in (Maybe) Four Parts - 1 (for now)
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2024, 08:11:17 PM »
"And yet for the most part their events are played in prime time for good weather." 


And thank goodness for that. ;)

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT-ish - Settlement in (Maybe) Four Parts - 1 (for now)
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2024, 02:55:12 AM »
I mean, if there was one course on earth where you could safely say it was meant to be testing for the professionals and amateurs should just either deal with the challenges or not go . . . wouldn't that be the TPC at Sawgrass?


I can't disagree with that, but (knowing man that you are) that moves this part of the conversation where I think it should go... ("meant")...Tough and mean as they can be (or be made)...Oakmont and WFW and Bethpage Black (like a load of great courses) exhibit their architecture in the context of "use by all/member hackers included"...isn't that automatically, almost-disqualifying, of Sawgrass as ever being more, architecturally, than a well-funded quirk for TV? At which, I say it does very well...I'm entertained nearly every year.


It almost exists "outside" architecture...it tells me nothing about strategy, principles, playing width, alternate routes, directional routing, and fascinating and variated as they may be, those greens - which are genius challenge for the player near them in regulation, are a nightmare when you arrive there in one more shot... you tell me, as player or architect or friend to Pete Dye, what are Sawgrass' exceeding or surpassing virtues?


To be sure, I see the minute strategy of every hole watching the Players...I'm riveted.  But what does that mean if those strategies and beauties are largely inaccessible to the common player, playing there?  All that delicious stuff we see the pros face on #4 is colored bubbles to the least err of the common player; for us, it's just a tough hole with a tough green, period.  It might as well be double or 2/3rds of its yardage; there's still five game over/pickup spots.  Say what we might of Bethpage Black and how its presented, that's not present there (largely).


All that coverage about "the genius" of Pete Dye moving the player's eye to this spot or that spot and its temptations...and statistics of the "right" side of the fairway as opposed to the left...that's all a bunch of TV/promotional shit.  Very few if any of those principles are at work for an everyday player, playing there....like its that first corrosive..."Architecture (Lifestyles) of the Rich and Famous"


And whenever has the "meant" proposition that amateurs "should deal or just not go" deserve applause in the architectural honors room?


I don't want it misunderstood, I love watching the Players on it...it might still be the quintessential American course...but I've settled for myself that its not a place for me to make effort$ to visit for a round of golf.  Anything joyous about it is on TV.  It can't make it in my golf world, like a journalism student fresh out of Ivy League, whose asks his first copy editor why his words "crepuscular" and "diurnal" were changed to "night and day."
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: OT-ish - Settlement in (Maybe) Four Parts - 1 (for now)
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2024, 08:26:08 AM »
Eliminating Major venues, the top 10 difficult courses last year (in order of relative difficulty in relation to par)

1) Torrey Pines South
2)  Muirfield Village
3)  Innisbrook
4)  Spyglass
5)  Colonial
6)  Bay Hill
7)  Memorial Park
8)  TPC Sawgrass
9)  PGA National
10)  Quail Hollow

P.S. And the year before it was 5th on the list, 3 spots higher than TPC Sawgrass




Kalen:  thanks for that list, I would not have been able to guess most of it.


But what is it supposed to be telling us?  The players' favorite courses [Pebble Beach, Riviera, Harbour Town] are nowhere to be found, and a lot of the courses listed are a snooze-fest to watch.  You've put the dagger right through the notion that a tougher test is more exciting to the home viewer.


The design brief for the TPC at Sawgrass wasn't to make it the most difficult course on Tour, it was to make it the most exciting tournament venue to watch.  A big part of that is that it has a lot of difficult shots with severe penalties for missing so that lead changes can be violent.  But at the same time, there are four par-5 holes that provide birdie chances, and the most controversial hole is a short par-3 with a fairly big green!


Does that make it something that V. Kmetz would enjoy playing?  I think he'd be surprised, if he visited as someone's guest and didn't have to think about the insane price tag.  Mr. Dye's take was that a course that tests tournament players will be way too tough for the average guy, no matter how short you make it, but that a lot of higher handicappers would love getting their ass handed to them, as long as they hit one or two good shots along the way . . . because those good shots would be very memorable in that setting.  If people are actually paying $650 to play the course, Pete must have been right.

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT-ish - Settlement in (Maybe) Four Parts - 1 (for now)
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2024, 02:47:01 PM »
Interestingly, someone I know who was at Sawgrass a few years ago told me they thought the Valley course there was harder than the Stadium course.

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