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Jim Roth

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Re: Which courses are most "intact"
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2024, 08:44:20 PM »
Thank you all for the commentary. I guess my original thought was which course is "laid out" exactly as it was when built. I understand the changes in agronomics have made the way courses play today very different so I see that argument but its not what I was originally after.  I grew up playing a town muni that has greens that stimped at mayeb 5-6.   it wasnt all that fun.  do I think 12-13 is fun?   not especially,  but a nice 9-10 would keep most old greens playable .   I guess i would sum it up by saying,  If I looked at an arial from 1926 and from today, which are the most similar?  bunkers all in same place?  fairways still as wide?  green shapes intact?   forest properly manaaged?  I migth give a pass for some back tee's but could you still play the ones from 100yrs ago if you wanted? 

Elk rapids was mentioned, and a quick look seemed promising but my guess is they would need to still take out another 100+ trees and widen the fairways further abit to make it true.   shuttle meadow was mentioned and there is some good stuff there, but still a lot is different from the 34 aerial.   I was thinking maybe fishers too.  one of the best courses in the world and you can count on one hand (one finger??) the number of fairway bunkers...  glad they never added any!!







Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Which courses are most "intact"
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2024, 09:39:00 PM »
Tom,  I really appreciate your mention of Chicago Golf and the work you did to renovate/preserve it.  A couple of others that come to mind are Lawsonia Links and Cape Breton Highlands at the Celtic Lodge
Ian Andrew could probably comment on Cape Breton Highlands.  It is also a bit newer than the typical Golden Age courses as it opened around 1939.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Which courses are most "intact"
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2024, 06:08:31 PM »
Allow me to nominate Grand Beach, a 9-hole Tom Bendelow loop in far SW Mich. that opened in 1912 and felt as though almost nothing in the way of design change had been done to it since.


I would be curious whether contemporary golf course architects who do end up redesigning/renovating the work of an established architect from a bygone era ever feel a tinge of ambivalence/melancholy about it. I grew up playing several Geoffrey Cornish courses and wonder whether on a long enough timeline, everything he ever did will be erased, and how the people who end up erasing his work will feel about it.


We may already know Jeff Brauer's thoughts on this, at least with regard to Floyd "Oklahoma Golf Hall-of-Famer" Farley.


Tim,


No one reveres the architects who followed Bendelow in being the Johnny Appleseeds of golf in various regions more than I do.  I am really only one step above that in my work.  I have also written here that I wouldn't be in a big rush to restore any but the top 25% or so of Ross courses, especially those that he didn't even visit.


That said, Kickingbird Golf Course was well routed and not in need of a lot of earthworks, so we know he was talented and also talented in getting low cost courses built across the Midwest.  But does a course that was built as the cheapest possible course when Edmond was a small town, which was needed then, need to be restored now that it is in a big city urban area, competing with a lot of new courses that are better designed?  I recommended that they plan for the future myself.....big mistake! I mean, if we are accurate in building to the FF philosophy, wouldn't we be building something for the inflation equivalent to the $300,000 he typically spent just to get a course on the ground in a small city?  BTW, that is about $2.3Mil, which would just give you a functional golf course at best.  Or, in 2024, an irrigation system if you ever got the funds to build the rest of the course.


More specifically, there were no paths originally, and maybe no sand bunkers.  Either way, the course tended to have bunkers right in the major walkways from cart path to green, which causes wear when playing 40K rounds.  I personally would never redesign something and build in the same operational problems, but maybe that is just me.


All of that said, if in design, form follows function, I have always thought that any design ought to look at its functionality and solve function issues with forms specifically designed to do so, even if not historically accurate.  Times have changed and look to be changing even more in the future, with sustainability issues, etc.


To answer your broader question, I doubt too many architects would shed a tear or be ambivalent about changing most of the work out there.  For that matter, I am starting to go crazy when talented architects admit before a project that they couldn't possibly do better than a Floyd Farley, or even a Ross. To stay in this biz, you need a bit of an ego and some talent.  Today's architects, IMHO, should be building on our predecessors' accomplishments (and fixing errors or things that didn't age well) rather than just copy what they did.


Maybe that is just me.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2024, 06:17:21 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Paul Jones

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Re: Which courses are most "intact"
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2024, 08:57:15 PM »
I would say Holston Hills, but heard a few changes are about to happen for Korn Ferry tour.  I would also think Cypress Point, they did not chase the add more yardage game.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Jonathan Cummings

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Re: Which courses are most "intact"
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2024, 09:44:35 PM »
Fountainhead in Hagerstown, MD.  Best i know - an untouched 1925 "Ross" (I think Hatch was the primary architect). 

Dale Jackson

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Re: Which courses are most "intact"
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2024, 01:54:13 PM »
I will try to counter all this Eastern bias and nominate Royal Colwood in Victoria, B.C.  Arthur Vernon Macan's first course (1913) and still close to the original.  Six greens (2, 8, 11, 12, 14 and 16) have been changed but three of those (8, 12, 14) were done by Macan himself in the 1920s.  Every hole is playable from the original tee, although there have been some longer too built over the years.  No changes to the routing.  There have been changes to some bunkers but many remain original.  In fact, regretfully, some are literally the original bunkers, they have never been rebuilt in 110 years.
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Which courses are most "intact"
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2024, 03:05:30 PM »
I will try to counter all this Eastern bias and nominate Royal Colwood in Victoria, B.C.  Arthur Vernon Macan's first course (1913) and still close to the original.  Six greens (2, 8, 11, 12, 14 and 16) have been changed but three of those (8, 12, 14) were done by Macan himself in the 1920s.  Every hole is playable from the original tee, although there have been some longer too built over the years.  No changes to the routing.  There have been changes to some bunkers but many remain original.  In fact, regretfully, some are literally the original bunkers, they have never been rebuilt in 110 years.


Seconded.
jeffmingay.com

Ian Andrew

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Re: Which courses are most "intact"
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2024, 06:54:17 AM »
Tom,  I really appreciate your mention of Chicago Golf and the work you did to renovate/preserve it.  A couple of others that come to mind are Lawsonia Links and Cape Breton Highlands at the Celtic Lodge
Ian Andrew could probably comment on Cape Breton Highlands.  It is also a bit newer than the typical Golden Age courses as it opened around 1939.


It’s largely intact.


Here’s what’s not:


The 13th green was raised slightly and lost the y shaped swale that ran through the middle in the process. Only altered green.


Pond and horrible berm in 12th are not original.


11th back tee is not original. It was a four.


6th back tee and pond were added


Holes that were wider:


1st on right
2nd on right
14th left


I think that’s it.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Ian Andrew

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Re: Which courses are most "intact"
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2024, 12:55:52 PM »
Re: Highlands Links

Btw, Keltic Lodge and some of the cottages have been closed. The lower hotel building remains open as does the golf course and restaurant.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2024, 01:07:56 PM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Stewart Abramson

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Re: Which courses are most "intact"
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2024, 04:25:28 PM »
Re: Highlands Links

Btw, Keltic Lodge and some of the cottages have been closed. The lower hotel building remains open as does the golf course and restaurant.


When we stayed at Keltic Lodge it eas a candidate for most intact lodging. Most intact may be good for a course, but not for a hotel. Hopefully its getting a nice renovation.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Which courses are most "intact"
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2024, 03:24:08 PM »
The easy answer here is the old GCA favorite Spring Valley CC in Salem, WI.  Designed by Langford & Moreau, the course had bunkers shaped but they never put in the sand.  As the course sits today, it feels like an old, dusty lake house with the covers left on all the furniture.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jim Roth

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Re: Which courses are most "intact"
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2024, 04:36:51 PM »
From Spring Valley website  -   

"Though the original plan called for 65 sand bunkers, the course’s first owner chose to leave them grass filled which has been honored to this day by the family that has owned the course since 1959.

[/size]Chicago architect, David Esler, said Spring Valley CC is like finding a vintage Porsche left in a barn untouched, the Langford and Moreau design has remained unaltered and is one of the best golf values in SE Wisconsin.[/color]
[/size]In addition to staying true to the original course design, Spring Valley CC has retained a retro charm, not only on the course but within the clubhouse and the pro shop, dating back to the time when your parents were avid golfers.

Looking at google maps if they cut down 500 trees we might have a winner!
[/color]

john_stiles

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Re: Which courses are most "intact"
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2024, 10:24:52 AM »
Holston Hills would be near the top for most "intact" except for the newish back tees since the 1970s or so.  Matches up very well with original aerials

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Which courses are most "intact"
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2024, 11:01:59 AM »
Tom,  I really appreciate your mention of Chicago Golf and the work you did to renovate/preserve it.  A couple of others that come to mind are Lawsonia Links and Cape Breton Highlands at the Celtic Lodge
Ian Andrew could probably comment on Cape Breton Highlands.  It is also a bit newer than the typical Golden Age courses as it opened around 1939.


It’s largely intact.


Here’s what’s not:


The 13th green was raised slightly and lost the y shaped swale that ran through the middle in the process. Only altered green.


Pond and horrible berm in 12th are not original.


11th back tee is not original. It was a four.


6th back tee and pond were added


Holes that were wider:


1st on right
2nd on right
14th left


I think that’s it.


When I was there last fall, some of the course was underwater. Are they doing any drainage work?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ian Andrew

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Re: Which courses are most "intact"
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2024, 12:58:54 PM »
When I was there last fall, some of the course was underwater. Are they doing any drainage work?


No. The 6th is one foot sea level. If there is rain in the valley, the exit is too narrow to the sea and it backs the water up onto the 6th fairway. Nothing you can do. Drains once the river drops. Spring tide does that without rain.


If it’s elsewhere. They are investing nothing into the course. So… no. They need a lot of drainage.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Ian Andrew

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Re: Which courses are most "intact"
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2024, 01:00:27 PM »
Re: Highlands Links

Btw, Keltic Lodge and some of the cottages have been closed. The lower hotel building remains open as does the golf course and restaurant.


When we stayed at Keltic Lodge it eas a candidate for most intact lodging. Most intact may be good for a course, but not for a hotel. Hopefully its getting a nice renovation.


Might get demolished. Only a historical assessment will save the building, but nobody will renovate it. Too many problems.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....