[Tom_Doak]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/gidori-luxury-golf-resort-neom-saudi-arabia-crown-prince-mbs




As many here may know, part of Saudi Arabia's embrace of golf has been a project to develop multiple golf resorts around the country, all funded by the crown prince.  Many of us architects have received either feelers or offers about building one or more courses there.  [I personally have been reached out to about half a dozen times, directly and via intermediaries, but I've always declined, without ever discussing money.]


But someone is taking these jobs, right?  I presume Greg Norman and Phil Mickelson, with their deep involvement in LIV, were among the original recipients of commissions, but it's got to be more than them [especially if the clients really want a great course  ].  So who is signing up?


You'll notice the press release above does not mention a golf course architect, which seems far at odds with GOLF DIGEST's willingness to bash any [male, LIV] player who accepted Saudi money.


But is it really at odds?  Or is the whole point of bashing the LIV players just to circle the wagons for the PGA TOUR's dominance of world golf?  And no one really cares when it comes to golf course architects "taking Saudi money", because it was never about that?

[Charlie Goerges]

Do we think the putting-line-revealing glasses fall within the rules of golf?

is the whole point of bashing the LIV players just to circle the wagons for the PGA TOUR's dominance of world golf?

For some it probably is. I can say that for some of us naïve idealists it really is about the violence and repression. I don't know that I'd publicly judge an architect for taking these jobs, for most, their existence is much more precarious than someone like Dustin Johnson or Bryson or Brooks. But full respect for those who avoid it. And if someone does take the job, I'd recommend giving them a discount and doing no site visits, especially if you're ever critical of MBS's authority.

[Adam Lawrence]

Dave Sampson of EGD did Royal Greens. Norman is building at least one course. Nicklaus is doing at least one. RTJ2 has a project. David Kidd has a project. I'm not sure who else.

[Thomas Dai]

How things have moved on golf wise in the Middle East since Karl Litten laid out the first grass golf course in the region at the Emirates GC in Dubai in the late 1980’s.
Atb

[Paul Rudovsky]

Tom Brown and my list of new courses, reno, restore and rebuild projects shows 6 new courses (obviously no restores, reno's, or rebuilds there):  (go to https://fescue.github.io to see full list)


Royal Diriyah Wadi Satar (Norman, expected to open in 2025...9 holes already open)
Qiddiya (Nicklaus, expected to open 2026)
Dye Course (Cynthia Dye, expected to open 2026)
Sindalah Island (RTJ II, expected to open this year)
Shura Island (arch TBA expected to open 2025)
King Salman Park Royal (arch TBA expected to open 2027)


Adam--do you know if David Kidd is associated with either of these TBA's?

[Frank Pont]

CDP does not work in Saudi Arabia out of principle.
Neither do we work in Russia and China.
Life is too short.

[Ben Stephens]

Saudi is the current 'Gold Rush' lots of Architects are working there - they are dropping their projects at home to work in Saudi. I was head hunted for a job there had to turn it down then (early last year) for family reasons. Having seen the construction images they have done it rather quickly and getting it done.


My former business partner is doing a lot of work out there architecture wise and they want something different which is producing some designs out of this world.


An example is that Norman Foster has been invited to design a 2km tower in Riyadh which would be over 1100m higher than the current tallest building in the world. Thats how ambitious MBS and his team are. 


The Saudis are gearing up for when the world becomes less reliant on oil or the oil reserves run out.


Not only they are investing in their own country but in other countries as well. PIF have their eye on Heathrow Airport.


PIF is now bigger than the Norwegian Fund.


I do know who's going to work at King Salman Park Royal Golf Course 

[Adam Lawrence]

Adam--do you know if David Kidd is associated with either of these TBA's?

I don’t know Paul. David told me he was working in Saudi when I saw him at Comporta last year. But we didn’t discuss which project.

I have been invited to go to Saudi on a press trip a few times. My position has always been that, as a journalist, it would be rather hypocritical (and a bit stupid!) of me to take hospitality from a regime that cuts up journalists it doesn’t agree with.

[Adam Lawrence]

An example is that Norman Foster has been invited to design a 2km tower in Riyadh which would be over 1100m higher than the current tallest building in the world. Thats how ambitious MBS and his team are. 

Foster & Partners may have but I doubt very much that Lord Foster has much invoivement given he is 88. There is signature design in buildings architecture as well as GCA 

[John Mayhugh]

CDP does not work in Saudi Arabia out of principle.
Neither do we work in Russia and China.
Life is too short.

Indeed.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Adam--do you know if David Kidd is associated with either of these TBA's?

I don’t know Paul. David told me he was working in Saudi when I saw him at Comporta last year. But we didn’t discuss which project.

I have been invited to go to Saudi on a press trip a few times. My position has always been that, as a journalist, it would be rather hypocritical (and a bit stupid!) of me to take hospitality from a regime that cuts up journalists it doesn’t agree with.

Good for you, Adam. It seems that over the past year, SA's human rights abuses have been swept under the rug.

[Ben Stephens]

An example is that Norman Foster has been invited to design a 2km tower in Riyadh which would be over 1100m higher than the current tallest building in the world. Thats how ambitious MBS and his team are. 

Foster & Partners may have but I doubt very much that Lord Foster has much invoivement given he is 88. There is signature design in buildings architecture as well as GCA 

Hi Adam,




I think you would be surprised how much involved Stormin Norman will be in the design process for an 2km tower which has never been done before - He will be coming up with the concept design ideas and his employees/consultants will be putting the building together that he would be overseeing and having discussions etc the front man with the client MBS - a bit like Doak and his crew on a larger scale.


Architects never stop working until the day they die - Oscar Niemeyer was 105 and Frank Gehry is still working in his 90s


Norman is still doing cross country skiing and flying planes at 88 he is one of the fittest octogenarians.


Saudi is the place now where the 'unrealistic' projects are becoming realistic plus the money is a lot better than what you would be paid in other countries. 




Cheers
Ben

[Ben Malach]

The people who are building over there need jobs.


It's all well and good if you can turn down work for ethical reasons. But, let's just say a lot of us can't.


If I got the call tomorrow to help shape in Saudi. I would take it.


Why, well the simple answer is I need to work to pay for my apartment, I need work to pay for my study trips to improve as a shaper and designer, I need work to continue to improve my craft.


I am not saying I agree with the Saudis position on a lot of things but this happens in North America as well. I have worked for people with whom I politically and morally disagree with. Why because I needed the job.


If I had to ideological agree with every owner or even job, I would never work another day.


Now I can hear your saber rattling already, but that's the truth. My hope is that they hire and foster good young talent. That builds the best golf they can over there. Why because it's a chance for people to practice golf architecture not just golf renovation. That's an chance that is so rare these days. I am really worried about the craft as the opportunities for mentorship and practice are few and far between these day.


So in short do I love the Saudis no, but is this a chance for some good people to work, yes.

[Tom_Doak]

Now I can hear your saber rattling already, but that's the truth. My hope is that they hire and foster good young talent. That builds the best golf they can over there. Why because it's a chance for people to practice golf architecture not just golf renovation. That's an chance that is so rare these days. I am really worried about the craft as the opportunities for mentorship and practice are few and far between these day.

So in short do I love the Saudis no, but is this a chance for some good people to work, yes.

Ben:


It's a chance to work, but what are the odds the work is going to be outstanding?  You really need the support of a committed client and a committed architect to do good work.  Why would you think you'd get any of that in Saudi Arabia?  Especially if most of the architects who are over there are motivated by Ben's twin horsemen of "unrealistic designs" and "better money" ?


That's why I haven't considered taking a job there, FYI.  It isn't about their politics; as you say, I'm not sure I'm on board with any politicians anywhere nowadays.  But, unlike Norman Foster who can mostly design from home, I couldn't build a good project without sending good people to do it, and the reports of how they treat workers are not inspiring.


That's also why I was curious who IS taking the jobs.  I guess they see it differently.

[Marty Bonnar]

I’m sorry, but if people can read this without feeling sick to their stomach and forming an opinion on this subject based on that, then good luck to them, but we can never be friends.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Jamal_Khashoggi#:~:text=According%20to%20numerous%20anonymous%20police,Saudi%20Arabia%20for%20the%20operation.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think you could argue that the designer of record for a 2,000m tall building would be a structural engineer, not an architect.

[Ben Malach]

Tom:

Why does the work need to be outstanding? Why can't it just be good 5-7 on your scale? Wouldn't that be a valuable addition to a region devoid of golf?

We both know with the audience in mind and the general quality of the sites in question. So greatness really shouldn't be the goal however that being said it doesn't mean the golf has to be bland. That's why I hope they hire good people and that those people have the chance to try to create something unique.[/size] That really should be the real goal of this project.  [/font]As something of that quality will get a lot of play as lots of people visit Saudi for a multitude of reasons ranging from religious to work.[/font]

I think it's clear that the client is committed to this goal as well as they have announced how many golf courses like 8-12. That seems like a group that wants to make golf the center of their pivot to becoming a more holistic travel destination. [/font]

Then it also comes to the question of the capital to complete this goal. As I know even the best firms' clients can sometimes struggle to pay for the costs associated with the development of golf. This is something that I don't think we have to go into but let's just say they have the money to build whatever they want as proven by some of the other projects mention in this thread. [/font]
As for architects I just think it was that this is the wrong time to get the best of the best with the promise of work alone. But if this project had started 5 to 10 years ago when new golf development was fallow. I think we would have seen more interest from more well-regarded firms. At this point, a lot of these firms are engaged with work at home or in more attractive markets. But that doesn’t mean that there isn't someone willing and talented to handle the work. It just means that they have to be open to someone new and looking for a chance beyond small-scale renovation work. So I think there is more of a possibility than you are giving credit for these projects to be decent.

Remember not everyone has the luxury to pick and choose their clients if they want to work. Especially when it comes to the rare world of new golf courses. This Saudi job has its risks but all jobs do as I am sure you know.[/font]

As to the treatment of people, I have a little bit of insight on this as I grew up and currently live in Calgary, Alberta. The home of the Canadian oil and gas industry, So I grew up with a lot of kids who did stints over there as well I have had discussions with oil and gas professionals who have done work in Saudi and the surrounding nations. I can’t think of anyone having a bad experience over there. Everyone got paid, the food was decent and then they came home. The only bad stories I have heard were about people who broke the law or did other dumb stuff that would get you into trouble in almost any country on earth. But even then most were deported and given a stern warning never to return. [/font]


A reminder that this is only talking about the experience of Western professionals brought in for their specific experience in a field that was required for resource development. Which would be similar to that of any architect or western shaper who would be talking up work in this area. It is not discussing the situation of unskilled foreign labour as that is something I have limited experience with. As that can be a little more complex of an issue. But in some ways, it's similar to the use of undocumented labour in the American golf sector but nobody wants to talk about that one here. [/font]

I would suggest there are a multitude of reasons why people would take work here. I think it makes sense why an opportunity to build in Saudi isn't that attractive  to a firm like yours. As you are already almost too busy to keep up with your projects. This is a very enviable position in a field as competitive and hard to break into as golf architecture, especially the new build space. This might be someone's shot to build their first course or to do something a bit different as when your building a lot of golf. One of them has to take a risk.[/font]

[Niall C]

I have been invited to go to Saudi on a press trip a few times. My position has always been that, as a journalist, it would be rather hypocritical (and a bit stupid!) of me to take hospitality from a regime that cuts up journalists it doesn’t agree with.

Adam,


As a matter of interest, would your position be any different if they had cut up a chartered surveyor, or landscape gardener, or accountant etc. instead of a journalist ?


Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

I have been invited to go to Saudi on a press trip a few times. My position has always been that, as a journalist, it would be rather hypocritical (and a bit stupid!) of me to take hospitality from a regime that cuts up journalists it doesn’t agree with.

Adam,

As a matter of interest, would your position be any different if they had cut up a chartered surveyor, or landscape gardener, or accountant etc. instead of a journalist ?

Niall

It is a good question, and to be absolutely honest I am not 100 per cent certain. Mr Khashoggi and I shared a profession, but our work has basically nothing in common. But it just feels close to home in a strange sense. I’d like to think if MBS had it in for ice cream men I’d still take the same view, but I can’t be sure.


What I would say is something I said to David Kidd when we discussed it last year: I make no comment or judgement on people who do choose to go and work there. We all have to make a living and for everyone it is an individual response to personal circumstances.

[Ben Stephens]

I think you could argue that the designer of record for a 2,000m tall building would be a structural engineer, not an architect.

I wouldn't agree on this statement Ally.


Architects have the vision and conceptual ideas the structural engineer makes it work (they don't have the Architectural vision).


Centre Pompidou is an example - Piano and Rogers came up with an incredible conceptual idea then (bridge structure with no internal columns on each floor - they were lucky to have the legendary Peter Rice (who passed away far too early) to make it work - look up 'gerberette' 


Norman Foster is one of the very few Architects who also has a structural designers mind - look at the HSBC Bank building in Hong Kong its ingenious and one of my favourite buildings in the world which made my jaw drop. It can be dismantled like a kit of parts and built up again elsewhere. He will definitely challenge the best structural engineers in the world even at 88.


We will have to wait and see when the conceptual design is revealed - I suspect it will have a wide base and conical.


Cheers
Ben

[Ben Stephens]

The people who are building over there need jobs.


It's all well and good if you can turn down work for ethical reasons. But, let's just say a lot of us can't.


If I got the call tomorrow to help shape in Saudi. I would take it.


Why, well the simple answer is I need to work to pay for my apartment, I need work to pay for my study trips to improve as a shaper and designer, I need work to continue to improve my craft.


I am not saying I agree with the Saudis position on a lot of things but this happens in North America as well. I have worked for people with whom I politically and morally disagree with. Why because I needed the job.


If I had to ideological agree with every owner or even job, I would never work another day.


Now I can hear your saber rattling already, but that's the truth. My hope is that they hire and foster good young talent. That builds the best golf they can over there. Why because it's a chance for people to practice golf architecture not just golf renovation. That's an chance that is so rare these days. I am really worried about the craft as the opportunities for mentorship and practice are few and far between these day.


So in short do I love the Saudis no, but is this a chance for some good people to work, yes.

The money Saudi offers is incredible certainly a lot more than the equivalent position in UK or even US - however you may not be able to take it all out of the country.

[Steve Lapper]

While I don't know for a fact (having heard it second-hand), I believe Jack Nicklaus (or some associated with he or his firm) have committed to design at least one course (if not more) in Saudi Arabia.
[/size]
This was mentioned even a 2nd time just yesterday. I was flying back from Nashville and sat next to a lovely woman whose  design company was contracted to work on NOEM, the Saudi city of the future. She said they had plans for several golf courses there and named JN as one of those involved. That said, I'm not sure she has ever gripped a club or knew much about the game.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Is it the Nicklaus Companies or Jack himself?  Didn't Jack split from the Nicklaus Companies a few years ago?  Or is that not related to the GCA firm?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

Why does the work need to be outstanding? Why can't it just be good 5-7 on your scale? Wouldn't that be a valuable addition to a region devoid of golf?

Ben:

That's a fair point but based on the names that have been mentioned so far, it doesn't look like they are hiring any first-time designers to do something really bold.  They are hiring big brand names, even if most of them aren't the hottest brands of the moment.

[Paul Rudovsky]

That's a fair point but based on the names that have been mentioned so far, it doesn't look like they are hiring any first-time designers to do something really bold.  They are hiring big brand names, even if most of them aren't the hottest brands of the moment.


Hate to be the one to break the news...but my guess is that 60-70% of the golfing population is more interested in playing a course designed by Nicklaus or Norman than one designed by Doak, Coore-Crenshaw, C. B. Macdonald, Dr. MacKenzie, Raynor, Colt etc.  To the 75%, Nicklaus, Norman, etc are the hottest brands

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