Neo-Classicism & Surrey's Classic Courses > Huntercombe > Trees!

[Simon Barrington]

Reports are that Gil Hanse has just been selected as the consulting architect for Sunningdale Golf Club, Surrey.
The Club expects a masterplan set across up to a decade, implemented annually during the Winter season, rather than wholesale dramatic revisions.

This is on the heels of Renaissance's Brian Schneider and his team of talents (shapers and historians) being selected by St Georges Hill GC to do the same on the 27 Holes there.

With CDP in motion already at The Addington, these are exciting times for the celebration and restoration/renovation of these classic courses by Willie Park Jnr., Harry Colt and JF Abercromby respectively.

For discussion:
Which Classic UK courses would you next like to see refreshed by the current leading lights of the restoration movement?

[Tony_Muldoon]

To answer your Question.  Huntercombe.


Next in alphabetical order.  Burham and Berrow, East Devon, North Foreland, Pennard, & Stoneham.





I'm very pleased that there is some variety of Architects employed.  I only hope the industry is large enough so that not all work is carried out by the same few firms. As ever sensitive choices have to be made as to what to restore to.  Somewhere like Thurlestone has lost a couple of hundred bunkers, there may be good reason for many of those not to be replaced.

[Simon Barrington]

To answer your Question.  Huntercombe.

Next in alphabetical order.  Burham and Berrow, East Devon, North Foreland, Pennard, & Stoneham.
...

Interesting, I love Huntercombe as learned the game there as a boy...its special but could be so much more so
(Seen pictures with c.55 bunkers!)


M&E already working at B&B

[Sean_A]

Please, no more work at Burnham. It isn’t that long ago that a 5-6 year period of course work was completed.

Stoneham had massive work done to the course, greatly improved.

Huntercombe is desperate for a proper restoration.

I was just discussing Meyrick Park today. Wouldn’t major work there be something cool.

Ciao

[Simon Barrington]

Please, no more work at Burnham. It isn’t that long ago that 5-6 year period of course work was completed.
Stoneham had massive work done to the course, greatly improved.
I Huntercombe is desperate for a proper restoration.
I was just discussing Meyrick Park today. Wouldn’t major work there be something cool.
Ciao

Not sure how much more M&E are proposing at B&B, I know a member and play it twice a year at least so will see what I hear next time.
Stoneham has a great reputation and here good things about recent work there, a lot of good players from down there over the years.
Huntercombe is a place of unspoken inertia, they have a consulting architect but most work has been simply to tees. Which is how the membership want it, they love their adopted almost-bunkerless heritage (funny how a mythical impression can be percieved as true, even in the face of photographic evidence). Some great features there to work with from Park Jnr's personal mission (& sad failure financially)
Meyrick Park - Would be tough as think its council-owned and run by Club Corp, so where does the impetus and funding come from? But certainly would be a great restoration project (I think that has been discussed on here before) could be a superb course again.

[Keith Phillips]

The obvious answer is Wentworth West!  I was a member at Wentworth 20+ years ago and particularly loved the East course, but the West has great history and deserves a true restoration.  I nominate Brian Schneider!

[Jeff Schley]

To answer your Question.  Huntercombe.


Next in alphabetical order.  Burham and Berrow, East Devon, North Foreland, Pennard, & Stoneham.





I'm very pleased that there is some variety of Architects employed.  I only hope the industry is large enough so that not all work is carried out by the same few firms. As ever sensitive choices have to be made as to what to restore to.  Somewhere like Thurlestone has lost a couple of hundred bunkers, there may be good reason for many of those not to be replaced.

Yes Tony, the work at least for restorations is very large now and you would like to see a variety.  It is a business and there is competition, it does appear that having a "name" has become more important for restorations as maybe in years past the bigger names were building new courses.

[Simon Barrington]

The obvious answer is Wentworth West!  I was a member at Wentworth 20+ years ago and particularly loved the East course, but the West has great history and deserves a true restoration.  I nominate Brian Schneider!

I can only agree, wholeheartedly, on both fronts. I second that proposal.

The East is charming and far less damaged, I also loved the old short 9-holer (pre-Edinburgh).
Played a decent amount there as a youth, and officiated there many times pre-changes on "The Burma Road" in the early 1990's

[Jeff Schley]

The obvious answer is Wentworth West!  I was a member at Wentworth 20+ years ago and particularly loved the East course, but the West has great history and deserves a true restoration.  I nominate Brian Schneider!

I can only agree, wholeheartedly, on both fronts. I second that proposal.

The East is charming and far less damaged, I also loved the old short 9-holer (pre-Edinburgh).
Played a decent amount there as a youth, and officiated there many times pre-changes on "The Burma Road" in the early 1990's

Played the West last year, do they have a consulting architect even?  I know Ernie Els did work a decade or more ago.

[Simon Barrington]

"Played the West last year, do they have a consulting architect even?  I know Ernie Els did work a decade or more ago."

Unsure about currently but Els was involved in the revamp of his own revamp (albeit with others clearly steering)
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/tour-news/wentworth-west-course-revamped-again-125676

[Sean_A]

Please, no more work at Burnham. It isn’t that long ago that 5-6 year period of course work was completed.
Stoneham had massive work done to the course, greatly improved.
I Huntercombe is desperate for a proper restoration.
I was just discussing Meyrick Park today. Wouldn’t major work there be something cool.
Ciao

Not sure how much more M&E are proposing at B&B, I know a member and play it twice a year at least so will see what I hear next time.
Stoneham has a great reputation and here good things about recent work there, a lot of good players from down there over the years.
Huntercombe is a place of unspoken inertia, they have a consulting architect but most work has been simply to tees. Which is how the membership want it, they love their adopted almost-bunkerless heritage (funny how a mythical impression can be percieved as true, even in the face of photographic evidence). Some great features there to work with from Park Jnr's personal mission (& sad failure financially)
Meyrick Park - Would be tough as think its council-owned and run by Club Corp, so where does the impetus and funding come from? But certainly would be a great restoration project (I think that has been discussed on here before) could be a superb course again.

Huntercombe is particularly disappointing. Their work on trees has been going on for years and not much has been achieved. I do note the 3rd green was extended and the OoB on 16 has moved well left, near the fairway. There are several large hollows along the OoB short of the centreline hollow. Quite a different drive now compared to 5ish years ago.

Princes just completed what seemed liked several start and stop jobs to settle on the current 27 holes. But I always wished the 27 hole was ditched in favour of a restoration including the old house. Far too late for that now, but one can dream.

I wish the old Sandwich was revived. I am not a real fan of the two longer par 3s that resulted from the changes.

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

The obvious answer is Wentworth West!  I was a member at Wentworth 20+ years ago and particularly loved the East course, but the West has great history and deserves a true restoration.  I nominate Brian Schneider!

That isn't ever going to happen. Now Chinese-owned, Wentworth has wholly embraced its status as a modern tournament venue. At least the last go-round (by European Golf Design) was pretty decent, unlike the previous innumerable Els-designed (but really driven by then owner Richard Caring) iterations.

[Simon Barrington]

The obvious answer is Wentworth West!  I was a member at Wentworth 20+ years ago and particularly loved the East course, but the West has great history and deserves a true restoration.  I nominate Brian Schneider!

That isn't ever going to happen. Now Chinese-owned, Wentworth has wholly embraced its status as a modern tournament venue. At least the last go-round (by European Golf Design) was pretty decent, unlike the previous innumerable Els-designed (but really driven by then owner Richard Caring) iterations.

Yes indeed, but we can but dream...
I was listening to a "Feed the Ball" recently with Brian Curley that was talking about domestic Chinese course owners being far more open to major revisions (due to the moratorium on new builds)...so we live in hope...

[Simon Barrington]

"Huntercombe is particularly disappointing. Their work on trees has been going on for years and not much has been achieved. I do note the 3rd green was extended and the OoB on 16 has moved well left, near the fairway. There are several large hollows along the OoB short of the centreline hollow. Quite a different drive now compared to 5ish years ago..."

I know Huntercombe has been very well covered on here previously.
It is a well-loved part of our architectural history.
The 16th was apparently a neighbour complaint issue and agree that the solution is quite out of place.
The new RHS depressions do not match the rest of Park Jnr's wonderful extensive flat-bottomed extracted "pots" (most of which were sanded originally, and BTW there were press reports of sand being stolen back in the very early days of the common land course!).
The inertia is seemingly what the membership desire (not always a bad thing as it prevents piecemeal changes over time diluting the unique character). Little momemtum for change exists, even for a higher quality restoration. Tree removal is particularly opposed in the local area (local press and green groups jump on any activity even if properly advised and/or needed to manage ash dieback etc.).
The 6th hole has had lots of screening trees planted to protect the adjacent road (appropriately named "Timbers Lane") that splits the course, which is expected in the modern age. But, think more creative use of hazards (humps, depressions and even dare I say it, sand) to steer play away, in combination with less obvious planting, may have been a more sensitive solution. The character of the 6th hole is much changed, but with less risk of liability no doubt.
Perhaps one day when the rest of the South East's great heathland, moorland and downland courses have been restored sensitively, and Huntercombe recedes in others' thinking then things might change, but would not hold your breath...it probably will remain a (very special) time capsule.

[Richard Fisher]

Many thanks to Simon for a very helpful summary of what has happened at the 'Combe. Disclaimer - I have been a member for nearly 30 years, and my Uncle Neill was Secretary there in the 1970s, so I am not a dispassionate observer.


The one thing - and absolutely not unique to Huntercombe - that many US-based commentators on GCA underestimate are the (very considerable) restrictions imposed on many British clubs (even when they own the freehold of their courses) and (as with the trees at Huntercombe) clubs absolutely cannot do just what they want, in course architectural terms...I do think that Huntercombe has made good progress in recent years with some tree and brush clearance, which continues, and like Simon and Sean I would love to see the return of at least some of the post-war bunkers, but that is never going to happen (and stolen sand was indeed an issue). Unlike Simon I do like the tweaks at the 16th, if they had to happen at all!


As I have mentioned before, several of our Top 100 seaside courses (including Harlech and Aberdovey) come under the auspices of various national regulatory bodies, extending (e.g.) to how often and the depth to which rough can be cut. And sometimes there can be competing interests at play in which the clubs generally lose out, whether we like it or not. Sadly.

[Adam Lawrence]

The other issue with Huntercombe is that the routing is not original. The course originally started on what is now the fourteenth hole -- the original clubhouse was on the other side of the A4130. Now clearly that is never going to change -- I think it is now a private home, and even if it somehow became available, having golfers cross what is now such a busy road would be insane -- but it explains why today's first hole is a par three.

[Simon Barrington]

"Many thanks to Simon for a very helpful summary of what has happened at the 'Combe. Disclaimer - I have been a member for nearly 30 years, and my Uncle Neill was Secretary there in the 1970s, so I am not a dispassionate observer..."

Thanks Richard, it is a great club to be a member of and have a special family connection to. I love Huntercombe and also have a personal relationship with it, it has a big place in my heart. I learned the game playing 54-a-day there as a teenager for the cost of a £1.50 day ticket, that started my life-long passion for golf, and I later graduated to play in BB&O County trials/competitions/matches there back in the day (some good play, and some less so!).
The 16th approach was solid to solve an imposed-upon problem, but the detailed execution/shaping could have been far more in keeping IMHO. The constraints of external influences and liability are very hard for Clubs to manage these days.
I completely get that the membership largely, and correctly, err to changing little (that has kept it the charming place it is after all these years)
I just believe in the right hands it could retain what is great and unique, while exposing more of what may have been lost over time. It is a special place that is comfortable in its own skin, my love for it just makes me think it could be an even better version of itself over time without too much disruption.

[Simon Barrington]

The other issue with Huntercombe is that the routing is not original. The course originally started on what is now the fourteenth hole -- the original clubhouse was on the other side of the A4130. Now clearly that is never going to change -- I think it is now a private home, and even if it somehow became available, having golfers cross what is now such a busy road would be insane -- but it explains why today's first hole is a par three.

That's right, the starting point has changed, but not the routing or order of the holes, and I don't think it suffers at all from the change.
Walton Heath & Lytham St. Annes both start with a 3 and these exceptions are what make our game so special.
A mid-iron (short iron for many these days) to start your game is far less threatening than the old 1st (current 14th) drive is. (Starting with a Hole-in-One can be a very special thing  )

In some sense the current 18th is a better finish, in front of the charming wooden clubhouse, than the hidden 13th (old 18th) was. The old Clubhouse was far too large and gave an inflated idea of what was hoped for the course by Park Jnr. and the other investors (c.1901). Expense was not spared and the burden of that, the difficulty of getting golfers up the hill from Henley-on-Thames Station, and the lengthy search for water to irrigate did for them. Hence the bankruptcy and sale in 1905 to an insurance company. Later Lord Nuffield stepped in to buy the club as a gift for his wife.

[Sean_A]

The other issue with Huntercombe is that the routing is not original. The course originally started on what is now the fourteenth hole -- the original clubhouse was on the other side of the A4130. Now clearly that is never going to change -- I think it is now a private home, and even if it somehow became available, having golfers cross what is now such a busy road would be insane -- but it explains why today's first hole is a par three.

The routing is a bit changed, but it’s mostly just a change of numbering.  I think a long term solution about trees could be worked out which would improve things, but as I say, I don’t think the members care that much about the problem. Maybe if the membership continues to get younger….

Simon

I don’t mind the style of the hollows on 16, but I question their value. The OoB is right there and there isn’t really an advantage to driving that direction unless one thinks the centreline hollow can be carried. In which case the new hollows don’t matter. If it’s about aesthetics, sand in the hollows would look better from the tee. The hole is now distinctly a dogleg right. Before it was ambiguous. Hence the reason for pulling the OoB. I saw a few guys lose drives miles right trying to hit a draw over the centreline hollow 😎.

Now 14 could look much better with some feature(s) on the right toward the house. The OoB there looks very naked.

I wish 6 was turned into more of a dogleg right, semi sharing 18 fairway. Would need tree removal, but that’s a good thing there. The current solution of protecting the road is inelegant.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

This highlights a tree related issue … penny pinching.
Ignoring trees by penny pinching on course maintenance, ie staff, budget, subs, and the trees and scrub will grow and grow and grow and then after even a short period there’s a physically and financially bigger issue to deal with.
Don’t let the bloody things grow!
Remove the saplings and the brush and the scrub on a very regular basis.
There are machines that’ll do this in a time efficient manner and the cost of using them can over a short time save a bunch of money in tree surgeon costs and the hassle of dealing with tree hugging members and any outside bodies that might have become involved.
Atb

[Thomas Dai]

This highlights a tree related issue … penny pinching.
Ignoring trees by penny pinching on course maintenance, ie staff, budget, subs, and the trees and scrub will grow and grow and grow and then after even a short period there’s a physically and financially bigger issue to deal with.
Don’t let the bloody things grow!
Remove the saplings and the brush and the scrub on a very regular basis.
There are machines that’ll do this in a time efficient manner and the cost of using them can over a short time save a bunch of money in tree surgeon costs and the hassle of dealing with tree hugging members and any outside bodies that might have become involved.
Less leaves to deal with each autumn too.
Atb

[Josh Bills]

I don't remember if I secured this or Sean did, but I love the look of this 1946 aerial.

[Niall C]

This highlights a tree related issue … penny pinching.
Ignoring trees by penny pinching on course maintenance, ie staff, budget, subs, and the trees and scrub will grow and grow and grow and then after even a short period there’s a physically and financially bigger issue to deal with.
Don’t let the bloody things grow!
Remove the saplings and the brush and the scrub on a very regular basis.
There are machines that’ll do this in a time efficient manner and the cost of using them can over a short time save a bunch of money in tree surgeon costs and the hassle of dealing with tree hugging members and any outside bodies that might have become involved.
Less leaves to deal with each autumn too.
Atb

David


As you know, I'm not a greenkeeper but I'd be interested in hearing from anyone with practical experience as to whether what you propose would save money. Not against clearing trees and scrub in a lot of instances but have my doubts that hoovering up saplings and brush on a "very regular" basis against blootering trees and bushes out the way on a much less frequent basis would actually save money.


Niall

[Simon Barrington]

"Simon
I don’t mind the style of the hollows on 16, but I question their value. The OoB is right there and there isn’t really an advantage to driving that direction unless one thinks the centreline hollow can be carried. In which case the new hollows don’t matter. If it’s about aesthetics, sand in the hollows would look better from the tee. The hole is now distinctly a dogleg right. Before it was ambiguous. Hence the reason for pulling the OoB. I saw a few guys lose drives miles right trying to hit a draw over the centreline hollow 😎..."

Hi Sean
You clearly spend time playing with some long-hitting young guns! 
The carry over the central dip is c.295yds from the tips, and really not sure draw is the play here.
When we used to play Scratch Events there (back in the day) when the fairways ran really fast, getting a fade to chase down the LHS was the play as held the fairway line better and opened up the entrance to the green better for the approach.
Even with old equipment the running ball could get you into trouble in the central dip.
Most players hit 3/4-woods or long irons to hold on the firm fairways across most of the course.
Shaping shots to match the line/curve of the holes was essential.
Playing against the curve narrowed the effective landing area hugely when it was firm & fast.
Running into the tree-line across the other sides of fairways was not recommended.
Driver was reserved for only the 6th, 8th and 17th if being very aggressive.
Those that nurdled tended to score better than the hard hitters, you needed to use brain not brawn.
I think thats why they had the County Trials and Youth Events there to test the thinking of better players pre-selection.

[Sean_A]

"Simon
I don’t mind the style of the hollows on 16, but I question their value. The OoB is right there and there isn’t really an advantage to driving that direction unless one thinks the centreline hollow can be carried. In which case the new hollows don’t matter. If it’s about aesthetics, sand in the hollows would look better from the tee. The hole is now distinctly a dogleg right. Before it was ambiguous. Hence the reason for pulling the OoB. I saw a few guys lose drives miles right trying to hit a draw over the centreline hollow 😎..."

Hi Sean
You clearly spend time playing with some long-hitting young guns! 
The carry over the central dip is c.295yds from the tips, and really not sure draw is the play here.
When we used to play Scratch Events there (back in the day) when the fairways ran really fast, getting a fade to chase down the LHS was the play as held the fairway line better and opened up the entrance to the green better for the approach.
Even with old equipment the running ball could get you into trouble in the central dip.
Most players hit 3/4-woods or long irons to hold on the firm fairways across most of the course.
Shaping shots to match the line/curve of the holes was essential.
Playing against the curve narrowed the effective landing area hugely when it was firm & fast.
Running into the tree-line across the other sides of fairways was not recommended.
Driver was reserved for only the 6th, 8th and 17th if being very aggressive.
Those that nurdled tended to score better than the hard hitters, you needed to use brain not brawn.
I think thats why they had the County Trials and Youth Events there to test the thinking of better players pre-selection.

Don’t know what to tell you. Big ripping draws off the fairway right is what I saw. I gotta believe that exact shot is what caused grief and eventual change. I was never anywhere near long enough to carry to scoot a drive beyond the centreline hollow. But I never liked hitting toward a pack of gorse left either 😎.


Ciao